Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Steve Griessel: You've got to get to a prototype rapidly. So how do you get to the point where you can build a prototype, fly it and even crash it?
Be prepared to crash it and learn from it. So have more than one in order to learn really quickly and then to scale up and get it out there into the field.
That requires a completely different way of thinking.
[00:00:29] Intro: Welcome to Hangar X Studios where former fighter pilot and host John Ramstead takes us on a journey across aerospace as it enters an historic period of innovation and transformation.
Our guests include aviation experts, pilots, financiers, military leaders and innovators of all types.
Buckle up for another episode of Hangar X.
Today's episode is brought to you by our platinum sponsor, XTI Aerospace. They are powering the vertical economy, building a long range VTOL. And you can find more atxtiarospace.com now please remember to like, comment and share on this channel and enjoy today's podcast.
This is the Hangar X podcast and this is where innovators and aerospace experts and futurists come to get the information that they need to make decisions that are affecting the future of this transformation and this revolution that's happening right now. And today I'm really excited to have a friend of the show, Steve Greisel. First of all, welcome to the show.
[00:01:39] Steve Griessel: Thank you.
[00:01:40] John Ramstead: And I love something you said. You know what, you can build the most advanced aircraft in the world, but if it can't fly and execute its mission, what's the point?
Exactly, exactly. And you are the chairman CEO of Paramount and you guys do operations across the world. You build aircraft, you rapid prototype. There's so many things that you do. You're part of really, the global Defense Network. Is that fair?
[00:02:06] Steve Griessel: Yes, but just I stepped away from Paramount last year as the global CEO and I now run the same family's family office. But I'm still. But of course, yes. Deeply involved in aerospace and defense.
[00:02:19] John Ramstead: Yes, yes. And it is a passion of yours. Is it a background of yours? And you know, we've been able to, you know, bring you in for some discussions, you know, we're having here, which have been really fascinating because your approach to what you're doing, I think is pretty radical.
It's fundamentally transformational, but it's also very, very neat. And I think what it's going to do is going to allow a lot of companies a of lot like what XTI is doing and others to come to market years ahead of where maybe they'd even planned on it. But I'd love for you to share a little Bit about kind of your background and what led you into what you're doing in aerospace.
[00:02:54] Steve Griessel: Yeah, of course.
So as you can hear from my accent, I was born in South Africa.
Now a very proud first generation American.
Been in the US for 23 years with my family.
And my background really is I've just, I've been a serial entrepreneur. I mean, I started my first business when I was 25 with zero.
And through that, just learned, you know, through the school of hard knocks. I think most, most of the things I've learned the most from are the biggest mistakes I've made, not the biggest wins.
And throughout that have ended up in all sorts of different industries at different times and become sort of known as a transformational guy or turnaround guy. So when companies want to need a real boost and real transformation, just change, I'm the sort of person that somehow I get attracted to those things. Okay. And. Or if, you know, turnaround. So that's. So it's not so much an industry thing. It's more about, say, what I can bring to the party in terms of getting teams to think differently.
Because that's the first thing they've got to do in order to be, you know, to create something that's transformational.
[00:04:16] John Ramstead: Well, you got to get them to think differently and then you got them to change how they're doing things to incorporate that new thinking.
[00:04:21] Steve Griessel: Correct. But it always starts with thinking and particularly, you know, and I'm sorry to all you engineers out there, but, you know, engineers are of course the smartest people in the world.
[00:04:35] John Ramstead: Yeah, just ask us.
[00:04:36] Steve Griessel: All of them know that. And so there's no way that, you know, in their minds what they're doing is absolutely the way to go and there's no other way to do it. So that's even more fun is to get ready because they are, of course, you know, smart people. To get them to think differently, think outside the box, and then say, well, let's try this and see what happens. And watch people changing their lives, growing as human beings in their own rights, and then creating something that no one ever thought was possible.
[00:05:06] John Ramstead: Yeah, no, I love that. And you know, you've had a front row seat with a lot of conflicts and things that have happened over the last number of decades.
[00:05:13] Steve Griessel: Yes.
[00:05:13] John Ramstead: So we're going to talk a little bit about what you've learned, what you're seeing today, and then how you and the work you've done and your team has done to actually, I think, assess what those missions are and some of the gaps that were needed to be solved and then how you solve them. You know, we talked about before rapid prototyping and you guys are doing some things, model based design that are going to accelerate results. And you know, when I was in the military or if I'm a special operator and I have a, I have a need be because it has to address a mission capability, I need that need solved as quickly as possible.
And so, but I'd like to start with, if you're kind of looking out across the landscape right now, globally with a lot of the conflicts, you know, drones are coming into the picture, autonomous vehicles. There's, you know, the way that we're even engaging in either kinetic or strategic warfare is different. So I'd just love your thoughts on what you're seeing and where things might be going.
[00:06:09] Steve Griessel: Absolutely.
So just to give you a slight precursor to that, our founder and the reason I think Paramount has been such a success is he has always started with trying to solve the problems for governments rather than selling them something. And I think that's fundamentally, is to sit down with the leaders of a government and say, where are you know, what are you trying to achieve? Where do you have problems and helping them and supporting them to create those systems and then going away as Paramount are coming back with something.
And if you are able to understand at that level a country's issues, you're going to be far more successful than trying to sell stuff. But to jump forward to today, the Ukrainian war has completely changed the face of warfare forever. I mean, in the first few months of that war, I think something like 2,500 Russian tanks were destroyed by drones that probably cost $50.
Until that war, a tank was a, was something, was the greatest thing, you know, if you were a tank commander in a tank and suddenly you don't want to be in a tank.
[00:07:24] John Ramstead: Well, and one of the most feared things on the battlefield used to be the sniper. And I do some strategic work with the U.S. air Force. I was at an unclassified briefing and there is a soldier in the Ukrainian army.
This was a few months ago. Over 650 confirmed kills using drones.
[00:07:41] Steve Griessel: Right.
[00:07:41] John Ramstead: So that drone pilot has now replaced the sniper and he doesn't have to go sneak in somewhere and hide up in a hidey hole and then be exposed when he takes a shot either.
[00:07:50] Steve Griessel: Exactly.
[00:07:50] John Ramstead: That's gotta change the psychology of the, of the soldiers on the battlefield too.
[00:07:55] Steve Griessel: It's unbelievable. Right? So you've got, you've got the psychological change. You've got. That means of course all the Equipment, all of our procedures, et cetera. Everything has to change because of something that has completely transformed the battlefield and changed the nature of the fight.
But then that also means that there's no point. If we decide, okay, as the US that we need to get into this world, that we take five years and spend several billion dollars to create this stuff, we've got to create it in months, and then we've got to be able to scale up to make thousands and tens of thousands of things. It's a completely different way of thinking.
And so maybe being, you know, you don't have to be at the cutting edge.
[00:08:42] John Ramstead: Yeah.
[00:08:43] Steve Griessel: Because that might just take too long. So there's a lot of, you know, I think head scratching that we've got to do. And I know we're doing it in the US in order, you know, and around the world, I mean, other governments are doing, you know, to be able to look at the 21st century battlefield and say, what does it mean? So of course, you talked about autonomous. I mean, by the very nature of Those drones, or UASs, they are autonomous. But if you look at other platforms, our view as a company is that optionally piloted might be a better stepping stone. In other words, you could have an aircraft that could fly with its crew, pilot in a Wizard in one mission, land, and then the aircraft can take off and fly an unmanned mission with them being on the ground.
[00:09:30] John Ramstead: Based on what the mission planner needs.
[00:09:31] Steve Griessel: Correct. Based on what's going on at the time.
[00:09:33] John Ramstead: If I have a very complicated ISR package that needs that. Wizo.
[00:09:37] Steve Griessel: Correct.
[00:09:37] John Ramstead: Weapon system operator.
[00:09:39] Steve Griessel: Yes, Sorry.
[00:09:39] John Ramstead: Or I might need something that doesn't need that. So I just need to deliver cargo to a group that's maybe trapped behind the lines. They just need to get supplies. Two totally different missions, one platform. Is that kind of what you're referring to?
[00:09:51] Steve Griessel: Yes. And also, of course, because now you're taking humans out of harm's way, it might be because you're going into a particular, you know, spot where it'd be far better that they. They out of the aircraft, but they. They on the ground and can still see exactly what's going on, you know, on, on the ground, right through. Through the systems. They have the ISR systems and they could possibly even do a, you know, a light attack, you know, strike.
Be the same with vehicles. Why not? If you.
A vehicle could get to an area, but then the vehicle, you know, you could then get your team out of the vehicle and send the vehicle in the balance itself, you know, with a remote weapon Station right into, you know, into the hot zone. There's so many possibilities for these things, of course. And then above you, you're sitting, you know, with your drones that you've released from the vehicle.
But remember, all this leads to the biggest challenge and that's that every, the whole of Ukraine is completely jammed.
So that's the outcome of all these drones, is that no one can talk to anybody. The second you talk to anybody, you're a target. You're a target and you're a target very quickly.
So now how do we solve that? Because that means that we can't, you know, so for every reaction, there's a different, you know, reaction. And so this is going to be changing in front of our eyes over the next.
And that's what we've got to think about.
[00:11:23] John Ramstead: Okay, so dynamic fast paced changes and I believe the pace of change is not only accelerating, but it's going to continue to accelerate. That's not going to change and we have to adapt to that. And what you're talking about is this rapid iteration. And you said, hey, we learned from our mistakes, but that is a different mindset to actually make mistakes and make more mistakes more often so we can learn faster, iterate and actually get to solving that problem. Getting to that mission set, because you initially referred to kind of that traditional engineer that has a way they've been taught it's a little bit longer.
Could you talk more about what that mindset is and what you were able to do at paramount to instill that mindset across an entire organization?
[00:12:06] Steve Griessel: Of course, so fundamentally, of course, with things that fly, it's exponentially more complex. Right?
You've got to get to a prototype rapidly. So how do you get to the point where you can build a prototype, fly it and even crash it, be prepared to crash it and learn from it. So have more than one in order to learn really quickly and then to scale up and get it out there into the field, that requires a complete, completely different way of thinking. And that's where the incredible thing about model based design and let's call it concurrent engineering, I mean there's all sorts of buzzwords, but what that means is that design something in the virtual world and then immediately at the same time, do simulations on all the systems. So as you designing, simulate whether your design is working okay, learn from those simulations and adapt the design if you do.
[00:13:10] John Ramstead: And you're also finding those simulations now are good enough to actually be making these key decisions. Absolutely no different than the digital twin in the, in the physical object are indistinguishable today.
[00:13:23] Steve Griessel: I would say that companies that are doing this, I think you'd find most people say the chances of a mistake being, let's say, not being picked up in the virtual world is very low just because of the, you know, the advanced technologies now, the different systems. And remember, it's not just the tools, it's the people. If you, you know, it's a combination of the teams together with these tools and systems that are able to give you that sense of as you're moving forward, you're simulating, you're learning, you're changing and you end up with a result that you know is going to work. And when you do that on an integrated basis with the key systems or whatever craft you're working, you are going to be able to do that very, very quickly compared to designing something forever. And then at the end of it, then you start testing it, you find you got mistakes, problems, you go back and that can take years or maybe you never actually get to the other side. So that is a way of thinking.
It's about getting to rapid prototyping. It's about creating these digital twins. It's about the integration of those systems and as I say, simulations all the way to make sure it works. And at the same time, one level below that is to make sure that as you design, you're designing for manufacturing.
Because if you don't do that, there's no point in coming out of something that works, but then you can't manufacture it or it's.
[00:14:55] John Ramstead: And you also have to be able to support it.
[00:14:57] Steve Griessel: Correct. So. So it's in the field. Exactly. So it's correct. And this is a whole, it's, it's sort of three dimensional thinking. You know, you gotta, you gotta think about this very. But that's the way to think. You've got to think right to the end, you know, so sort of beginning with the end in mind and doing that. Now the, the challenge, I guess is, you know, the legacy way that we've been doing things and bringing in smart people, maybe people that are not even in that space, that are. It's second nature for them to use these tools. They've done it.
And it's then to convince teams that this is the way to go.
[00:15:33] John Ramstead: Well, I just finished reading Unit X about the defense innovation unit and that's what the entire book was about. Hey, how do we bring in these teams that aren't really defense or aerospace or weapons design teams, but they have a way of thinking and they can iterate very fastly and they solve some huge problems very, very quickly.
[00:15:53] Steve Griessel: And that's, it's almost a paradox. Right. But because the problem is the people in the trench and what I mean the experts, they've been taught a certain way in their mind there's no other way because I'm in my trench. I mean that is. So when people come out of, and.
[00:16:08] John Ramstead: They not in my career, people said no, this is how you do it or you're going to have a problem or an overrun or a failure or a life loss. So they've accepted this mindset without questioning it.
[00:16:17] Steve Griessel: Correct.
[00:16:18] John Ramstead: What you're saying is we should question everything.
[00:16:20] Steve Griessel: Yes, and that's why, and I hope I'm getting the point across, it's a way of thinking. It's, you know, you can go and buy all the tools in the world, but if you're not willing to change your thinking and you have people that are set in their trenches, you're going to end up, you're just going to have spent a lot more money and just be end up in the same place.
[00:16:38] John Ramstead: Yeah. You know, I do have a question for you. You talked about Ukraine and some of these other conflicts.
And so basically as a US OEM manufacturer, you're selling defense products, aerospace equipment to other countries. Is there something that you've learned in that or that as an OEM we should know or a foreign military?
This is where we want to get our products from America. But it's hard, isn't it?
[00:17:05] Steve Griessel: Yes. So firstly, our company is a global company and the vast majority of our work is done know into allies of the US and Europe, et cetera. But yes, in terms of that, I think the biggest challenge that we see, for instance in Africa, where we do have done work for 30 years, is a lot of equipment from the US, Europe, et cetera, that is sitting on the ground rusting is a simple reason.
Way too expensive, over complex and there's no proper training done on the ground. So what happens is the first five years, if it's supported, that's it. And after that, that's the end of that. And so you just see piles of all this equipment all over Africa as an example.
So we have to help those countries solve their problems. And if we solve their problems, the sort of equipment and solutions we're going to bring are totally different to, let's say someone wanting to sell, you know, prime wanting to sell something to an African country. We've got to approach and have deep conversations with their leaders in terms of what are they facing and how we can help them if we do that, I truly believe that let's call it the products and services that flow from.
[00:18:34] John Ramstead: That will naturally flow in the procurement process, will be in the acquisition process, will be hopefully straightened out by higher level relationships.
[00:18:44] Steve Griessel: Correct.
It starts at that level, but then it's got to flow down into the levels of people that are actually having to use that equipment, et cetera, et cetera. Because if there's a disconnect, the. Then that's what happens.
All this equipment, gear gets purchased, gets used for a very short space of time. As soon as any warranty, et cetera, that's the end of it.
And that's extremely sad.
And I think that's why I say we have to listen much more to those countries. They really have.
I believe that we in the US have ways, absolutely. To support them and help them solve their problems.
[00:19:22] John Ramstead: Yeah.
[00:19:22] Steve Griessel: Not tell them what their problems are.
[00:19:25] John Ramstead: We're good at that, unfortunately.
You know, last time you and I talked, I think you, you told a story, if you agree that I think really exemplifies everything we're talking about. And that's the Bronco 2 from rapid prototyping, model based design, figuring out what problem we need to solve for who, why is it important to them, and then in a very short period of time, going from an idea to actually something that we can put in front of them and they can fly and then be able to purchase is that.
And I'd love for you to tell us that story because I think it just exemplifies what Paramount is doing in something that I think it's critical page for the rest of us to adopt.
[00:20:04] Steve Griessel: Sure. Well, this is all about our founder. So it's the way he thinks. And at some point, when he's not as busy as he is, he needs to write a book on this because I think he'll teach, you know, all of us a lot.
When the way that that aircraft was conceived is he had been listening to the problems, okay, of African governments, Middle Eastern governments, and other special forces around the world.
And when he stood up, what he did is he stood up in front of a lot of older engineers and then a lot of young engineers that he brought in. And he said this. These are the capabilities that I want you to design to. He only gave them capabilities. He did not talk about what this aircraft needs to look like. He never talked about any of the features, just purely the capabilities of the aircraft. And then he left the room and.
[00:20:55] John Ramstead: The capabilities were set by his Deep conversations about the needs of basically the.
[00:21:00] Steve Griessel: Customer and solving a problem. Exactly. I mean, that's why, you know, and I'll go that. And that was genius because if he had given them any preconceived ideas, the thing would probably not have flown. So. And there's a lot of, let's call it, elements to that that we don't think we have time to go into. But that's why Today, the Bronco 2, the first iterations that came from the team, it looks like an attack helicopter.
It's got field of view that is unsurpassed in any of those aircraft because it's an ISR aircraft. So the prop therefore went to the back.
It's got this huge canopy, it's got a conformal mission bay that can be changed in two hours to a completely different mission. Instead of having to do an STC over 18 months, it has these big fat tyres because it can land anywhere.
You can climb up onto the wing and refuel the aircraft, just the pilot and the wizard. So, so it can be broken down in 12 hours and reassembled in 12 hours. It can fit in a C130, two, can fit in a C17 and one can fit in a 40 foot container.
All those were, those were the criteria that he gave the team.
That's why the aircraft looks like it looks like it's not the other way around. And for me it sounds so simple. But why don't we ever start just simply with not giving everybody what you want, but just telling them these are the capabilities. And it comes, as you say, from a deep sense of knowing what these forces and particularly special forces are facing around the world. And hence, you know, you've now got the only clean sheet 21st century design Special aircraft in the world.
[00:22:46] John Ramstead: You do. And will you speak a little bit to the, not only the model based design, but when you were actually testing just the mission capability, you were using virtual reality to even put a. Let a pilot give you feedback without having the airplane built. I was fascinated by that.
[00:23:01] Steve Griessel: Yeah, correct. So in the, because of the systems. Okay. You know, model based design, I mean, it's a buzzword, but if you have, with these tools you're able to create that.
And at the same time we also, so we had all these virtual tools, we could also do a lot of structural analysis.
We could, you know, there's all sorts of different things that we could do at the same time. But yes, give people a sense of what it would feel like to be in this aircraft and at the Same time we also did it, we always do test benches. So we had a test bench of all the systems running on the aircraft on a bench.
And so because, I mean those are highly complex systems that all have to talk to each other in an open architecture.
And so we knew that by the time, you know, when the aircraft was built, we took those systems off the bench that were going to work in the aircraft. There was no doubt that also saved a huge amount of time and effort because once again, if you do that once the aircraft built and you do it inside the aircraft, you've got problems. It's going to take a long time. So it's your ability to simulate all these things, show people, get people, very smart people on board all the way through to come out the other side with a much higher chance or probability of winning.
[00:24:20] John Ramstead: Yeah, another question too, just with your background also, not just in the operations and execution side, but also in the investment side of aerospace, these companies need a lot of capital.
They usually have a lot of time, longer time horizons before they're even cash flow positive. Right.
What kind of investor do you think is the right kind of investor to be putting money into aerospace right now? Knowing the potential, but also knowing some of the risks between, you know, with the companies that are going to break out.
[00:24:55] Steve Griessel: Right. Well, it's a very exciting time for aerospace in general just because of what we talked about in terms of the, you know, the 21st century battlefield and the changes and things like, you know, the xti, you know, you look at the Trifan and what they trying to achieve and other companies are trying to achieve. So from an investor perspective, I would say that investors, for me, I would make absolutely certain that if I am going to invest in this, that I'm looking at, you know, I say that the team and whether the team is embracing what I've just talked about.
[00:25:31] John Ramstead: Okay.
[00:25:32] Steve Griessel: Because for every, you know, 20 teams that do, this one is going to succeed.
And I bet you that the one that succeeds is the one that is led by someone who totally lives and sleeps model based design, who is willing to do simulations and realize very quickly that what he thought or she thought was completely incorrect and change on the fly early so that. And end up with something quite different to what they thought because that's what happens in model based design.
But something that works, you gotta be.
[00:26:06] John Ramstead: Willing to have your mind changed and let go.
[00:26:08] Steve Griessel: Oh my word.
[00:26:09] John Ramstead: Yep.
[00:26:09] Steve Griessel: You're gonna, and you're gonna go take.
[00:26:11] John Ramstead: Your ego out of that equation, don't you?
[00:26:13] Steve Griessel: You're gonna get A lot of surprises and some of them be incredible. Some really positive stuff, but some. And you gotta go with that because. Because the math and the science and you know, aerodynamics don't lie. I mean, it's telling you this is where you're going and those are the teams you gotta back.
[00:26:30] John Ramstead: Yep.
[00:26:30] Steve Griessel: I don't, you know, sure. I mean, some have got enormous amounts of money, so that's, you know, you know, smart way to go. But by that time they don't really need money. Right.
But that's what I would check, you know, because then I believe that they would be in a very, they'd be in the best position to know that they're going to succeed. And therefore that's where the investment dollar should flow.
[00:26:53] John Ramstead: Well, I love that answer. And you know, as we wrap up, I have one question for you. Just you, you have such a unique view and mindset in this industry.
Think ahead 1, 2, 3, 4 years. Where do you think the biggest innovation is going to come from that's going to open up this next, maybe a next level of acceleration or development?
[00:27:15] Steve Griessel: It's model based design, AI and quantum computing.
[00:27:21] John Ramstead: So those three coming together.
[00:27:23] Steve Griessel: Oh my word. Yeah, I don't think we even utilizing those three things.
I think five years from now you.
[00:27:33] John Ramstead: Can take those capabilities, enter a script, and it actually could output the first, the first draft of the entire design.
[00:27:40] Steve Griessel: And you could say, here are the seven systems. Okay, within that aircraft, I want to please do an analysis of each one of them.
You know, down to all the math I want, all the formulas, I want the whole thing. Tell me, you know what I mean, the aerodynamics, the thrust, I mean, you know, the types of engines, why, I mean, everything.
You'd be able to do that and literally hit a button, get the answer. Now you'd probably be 85% of the way there already and that would be. But the trick once again is what are the questions you ask?
Because it's the same thing.
The future is going to be the questions you ask, not the answers that you, you get.
[00:28:19] John Ramstead: Oh, you know, maybe that's the biggest place for innovation. When I'm looking at almost the human element with these tools, the biggest breakthrough is us being able to ask better questions.
[00:28:29] Steve Griessel: That's why when people think that humans are going to go away, that's ridiculous. Whoever he or she asks the best questions will get the best outcomes using those tools. Because you and I can have this exactly the same idea. We'll go. And depending on those questions and those prompts I put into, into that machine learning and the quantum computing that's coming at us.
We think AI is pretty powerful now. Oh, my word. Five years from now, it's going to be unrecognizable.
[00:29:04] John Ramstead: Yeah, we need to do a show on that. I've been studying quantum computing, and it is a game changer. But, Steve, it's been so great to meet you in person. Thanks for coming up here to Denver from Dallas, and I'm excited about our next conversation.
[00:29:17] Steve Griessel: Yeah. Thank you for having me. Really appreciate it.
[00:29:19] John Ramstead: Absolutely.
[00:29:19] Steve Griessel: That was fun. Okay, thank you.
