An Aircraft That Fills the Gap | Jim Keyes

[00:00:00] Jim Keyes: Here I find myself on stage, Washington, D.C. getting a medal around my neck at the Supreme Court next to Buzz Aldrin. And I get to say that I am here today because I was inspired by guys like Buzz who were ordinary people doing extraordinary things. Welcome to Hangar X Studios where former fighter pilot and host John Ramstead takes us on a journey across aerospace as it enters an historic period of innovation and transformation. Our guests include aviation experts, pilots, financiers, military leaders, and innovators of all types. Buckle up for another episode of Hangar X. [00:00:54] John Ramstead: Today's episode is brought to you by our platinum sponsor and XTI Aerospace. They are powering the vertical economy, building a long range VTOL. And you can find more at xtierospace.com now please remember to like, comment and share on this channel and enjoy today's podcast. Welcome to the HangerX Podcast. And this is the place where innovators and accelerators and people that are transforming the aerospace industry come where we get you the information that you need to make big decisions on what's happening next. And with that, we have. I'm excited to have a returning guest on today, Jim Keys. Jim, welcome back to the podcast. [00:01:34] Jim Keyes: John, it's great to be with you. [00:01:35] John Ramstead: Yeah. And you're a business leader, you're an investor, you're an innovator. People might know you as CEO of Seven eleven and Blockbuster. [00:01:44] Jim Keyes: Yep. [00:01:45] John Ramstead: What people didn't know because we were talking about at lunch is you have been interested in aerospace and being an astronaut since you were a little kid. And you have some incredible stories about not only meeting astronauts, but starting to learn how to fly with your first paycheck. And you just flew up here for this podcast in your own airplane. I did, Yep. And you know, I want to start with something because one of the things that you talk about a lot, and it's about success, whether it's aerospace, because I think about things, Right. There's business success, there's personal success, there's our relationships, there's, you know, the things that we get to do in our community. Our lives are completely integrated, moving together. [00:02:22] Jim Keyes: Right. [00:02:23] John Ramstead: But you talk about this concept around agency and personal agency is an underlying, core fundamental philosophy that you've had through not only your whole business career, but learning to be a pilot and everything that you've done and now in the community. But could you talk a little bit more about that? Because it's something I think we need to hear more of. [00:02:40] Jim Keyes: Sure. It started actually with my own agency and I developed that the hard way growing up. In a really challenging environment with no money and broken family and parents going different directions. I was virtually growing up on my own until I was about 12 years old. And there was no one there with a safety net for me at that point. And it was really up to me. And young people in that position can go one of two directions. They can either go down the dark path, or they can take responsibility for their own life and say, I've got nobody here to protect me, take care of me. Whatever I am going to do in life, I'm going to have to do it on my own. And that gave me that strength to take matters in my own hands and get my education and be very independent. And it's given me a resilience today that lets me withstand anything that comes my way without having to feel that I have to blame someone else. There's no victimhood here. I actually put that concept into a book that I've called Education is Freedom. And the subtitle of the book is more important than the title of the book, because the subtitle I struggled about this. What do I have for a subtitle on this? What I thought was a very important piece talking about critical importance of learning. And I came up with the future is in your hands. And it is my attempt to define that agency requirement for each of us, especially in today's world where there's so much change, so much risk of misinformation, so much anger that comes from perception. Each of us has the opportunity and the responsibility to have our own use our own critical thinking skills, and to be able to discern right from wrong, truth from fiction. And that, I think, is the most important aspect of agency. [00:04:51] John Ramstead: Yeah. And I know that for you personally, Jim, this is a very deeply meaningful message. You poured your heart into creating this book, and it is. You know, we're here on the Hangar X podcast. We're talking about everything, aerospace, we're talking about industries that I think are going to transform and change how the world connects, communicates, helps each other. And also, there's a lot of cultural things happening, not just in the US but globally. [00:05:15] Jim Keyes: Right. [00:05:16] John Ramstead: What is the reason you think that this message right now is so important? Because I believe it is. [00:05:21] Jim Keyes: Well, I think what's happening is society is being driven, the economy is being driven, the world is being driven by an accelerated change coming from technology. We are right at the cusp of a brave new world where everything is changing because of the power of technology. We've seen only the tip of the iceberg. Now we've got AI coming. And imagine the change that will be caused by AI. Well, the reason for the book is to point out not only the importance of agency, us taking responsibility for our own life, but the importance of learning and being able to adapt to change. Because the key to change, which we're all facing in society, in our careers, change is going to happen. It's inevitable. The only thing that matters is how we respond. So literally, when I sat down to write the book, John, I put three words on paper. [00:06:23] John Ramstead: Yeah. Grab the book because I want to show people the COVID too. Because it also ties into that global picture. [00:06:27] Jim Keyes: It does. And the importance of space. The three words that I wrote on a piece of paper when I wrote this book were change equals opportunity. And. And. And I intended that because it reflected my life. The more I learned, the more I could do my career in aviation. The more I learned, the more I could fly. [00:06:55] John Ramstead: Right. [00:06:57] Jim Keyes: And it also reflected my role as a CEO, because all commerce begins and ends with change, if you think about it. And so I wrote those three words on a paper and I said, check this out. CEO, huh? The acronym Change equals opportunity. It is the role of a CEO. [00:07:19] John Ramstead: You have to lead and guide teams through change. [00:07:21] Jim Keyes: Exactly. [00:07:22] John Ramstead: And there's everybody are also at very different levels of people like me. I love change, and I have people on my team that did not like change, but I would change things just because I try to improve things. [00:07:32] Jim Keyes: Right. [00:07:32] John Ramstead: But I would totally stress them out. But there is change. And we could have a whole nother podcast on just leading in change management, because there is an art to doing that. But you're absolutely right. And you know, speaking of change and kind of a center of everything that's happening, I think, in advanced air mobility and regional mobility. You were just in the Middle East. [00:07:53] Jim Keyes: I was. [00:07:53] John Ramstead: And you were there and had a lot of some deep conversations. I'd love to hear what you learned as they're really one of the leading adopters of everything that's happening from EVTOLs to, you know, what we're doing here and what we call xvtol, that extended range vertical takeoff and landing. [00:08:09] Jim Keyes: Right. You know, I learned a lot in the Middle East. First of all, I was delighted to be invited as a little bit nervous. I've written this book called Education is Freedom. And I didn't know, you know, in some countries whether that would resonate. And it turns out it did. And the acceptance worldwide has been phenomenal to this concept. In the Middle east in particular, what I discovered was what we have more in common than what we have that separates. Divides us. Here I am talking about fear, a big element of the book, because you can't talk about change without talking about the obstacles to change, which is fear. And as I'm describing those obstacles, those things that prevent us from moving forward, it naturally evolves into, well, what about those things you don't know? How do you deal with those? And rather than talk about my Christian faith when I'm in a place like Kuwait, I chose to talk about Yoda because Yoda talked about the force. May the force be with you. Well, the force, I think, is a beautiful metaphor for faith because there will always be some things that we don't know. That's when we have to trust in ourself, in our beliefs, in the universe, even. And so what I found is here I am in a country where I'm the only one that didn't grow up with the Quran. And I'm talking about the balance of knowledge and faith, being able to overcome fear of any kind. And that. That being the key. [00:09:53] John Ramstead: Universal principles, though. [00:09:54] Jim Keyes: Universal principles. And that. That being the key to unlocking opportunity anywhere in the world. And I had, in every city I visited from Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, I had people stand up in the audience and say, you know, in the Quran, it says the same thing, that if you can't basically overcome your own fear, even Allah can't help you. And it was just fascinating to see the similarities and yet what appears to be differences in humanity across the globe and that if together. And I think this is what got me excited about it, because it was the premise of the book, that if together humanity can balance this natural balance between what we know and what we believe in, this faith and reason or faith and knowledge, if we can balance those, then we can overcome all of these fears that cause so much division across the planet. [00:11:01] John Ramstead: That must have been some fascinating conversations as you realize that, you know, I've always found people with different opinions of men. We can always find common ground. [00:11:10] Jim Keyes: Exactly. [00:11:10] John Ramstead: If you're looking for it, if you try. If you try. And you know what? Those conversations, and I'm also fascinated too, is, you know, in these conversations, I'm sure it also led to, hey, what does this look like for business, commerce, use cases that are happening, you know, that this could bring. How are they looking at what's happening across everything in Powered Lyft that could change their world? [00:11:32] Jim Keyes: Well, this is one of the blessings that I have having come from leading two Fortune 500 companies, especially companies that are household names, 7, 11, Blockbuster. Those are names known all over the world. So I sort of get to be. I get an audience sometimes that I wouldn't otherwise have because of those things. But then they learn about my aerospace background and I can take them down. Down. I could take the audience down a completely different path when it relates to business and commerce and especially change. So in the Middle east, as a great example, they have. Here's how they responded. When I talked about change. They said, ah, you mean like Dubai? And I said, and this isn't yet on the aerospace side. But I said, well, I think I understand what you mean, but let's talk about that further. And they said, well, Dubai has become incredibly successful because they found that right balance between their beliefs and tolerance and acceptance. Now the laws are the laws. In, in Dubai, when I leave my cell phone on a table and go to the restroom, I don't worry about it getting stolen. The laws are the laws and people obey the laws. Yet there's a respect for the difference in cultures and that has attracted commerce into Dubai. And Dubai as a result has been economically and commercially very, very successful. Every other Middle Eastern country that I visited, whether it was Kuwait or Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, saw that as a model of future success. Now, I think there are two areas that the Middle east will exceptionally pursue and one is energy. Because it's interesting, what I see over there is they're not looking at energy as the oil industry. I began my career in the oil industry and they see it as the energy industry. So new forms of energy, whether it's wind, solar or advanced nuclear, they see as right in their wheelhouse. The other area that I think they see as the future of commerce is aerospace. They're looking at flight, everything from air taxis to space flight as the next big commercial opportunity that will leverage technology into commercial opportunity. And I think you'll see the Middle east taking a strong leadership position in both energy and in aerospace. [00:14:11] John Ramstead: Yeah. And I want to talk about aerospace investing and your thoughts on that next. But when you think about what you just said, right. What is what in your opinion or what you've heard in the Middle east, your own work. What is driving that market opportunity? When they're saying, okay, we're one of the most successful commercial countries in the world. I was there in the 90s during Desert Storm. It is a different place today than 30 years ago. What is it that's driving this growth, this adoption, this addressable market in this space of powered lift, evtol exvtol? [00:14:41] Jim Keyes: Well, I Think what you'll find is that because of all of the turmoil in the Middle east, there was very little inter country commerce and travel. Kuwait as an example, is very much wants to promote tourism. It's a beautiful country, culturally, very rich and yet people aren't used to flying in and out of Kuwait. [00:15:04] John Ramstead: I've only flown over it. [00:15:05] Jim Keyes: Yeah, that's a whole other story. Yeah, yeah. You dropped a few parcels perhaps, but I, I found that one of the big opportunities is this movement between country to country. One of the things that shocked me is how close, you know, all of these country countries are. [00:15:27] John Ramstead: Oh yeah, there's just, if you look at the Emirates, there's. Yeah, it's like Abu Dhabi, Dubai, Fujairah. Well, I think there's five or six emirates. Yeah, all right there, all right there. [00:15:36] Jim Keyes: It's like going between Colorado and Texas and Arkansas and Oklahoma, you know, it's all right there. And the connectivity between those is just not existing. And what they do run between those cities is typical commercial air carriers, but their schedules are not very convenient and et cetera, et cetera. This is a perfect environment for air taxi to be able to quickly and easily move from Kuwait over to Saudi Arabia and then bop over to Pakistan or then from there over to India. The opportunity for short haul, small passenger load air taxi in effect is huge. [00:16:22] John Ramstead: Yeah, huge. [00:16:24] Jim Keyes: And it's going to be good for them as well because it'll promote that inter country commerce that they so long for. [00:16:31] John Ramstead: Well, and I think having you look, we've had people on this podcast to talk about the infrastructure in the urban environment, how challenging it's going to be if you just think about LA or New York City or Atlanta or Chicago and completely modifying, you know, landing places and electrification, all the things that make it work. So proving how it works outside of here, bringing that in. I know the FAA is interested, but you know, the nice thing about the other segment of the market, the exvtol and there's only three players that I'm aware of, xti Leonardo and Lockheed Martin is thinking about it. None of those need any new infrastructure whatsoever. They plug right into the current system. [00:17:09] Jim Keyes: Right. [00:17:09] John Ramstead: And when EVTOL is mature, it's going to be able to complement, I think that mission because it's not going to take that mission, you know, and that said, that kind of speaks to, when you talk about aerospace investing, you're very clear. So we need to take a portfolio approach. [00:17:23] Jim Keyes: Yes. [00:17:23] John Ramstead: Now when you say portfolio approach, what exactly do you mean by that? From how you look at it. [00:17:28] Jim Keyes: Well, so as you know, I'm a pilot and it frustrates me today because I can fly everything from a 172 or a helicopter to business jets to, you know, a long range jet. The problem is today there is no in between. When I earned my helicopter rating, it was, it was fabulous. I was like, wow, this is great. This is fun. It goes 130 knots at best. [00:17:58] John Ramstead: Best. What do you get your helicopter rating in? [00:18:00] Jim Keyes: I got it in a Schweitzer. [00:18:03] John Ramstead: Okay, I'm almost done with mine. Mine's in the Robinson R44. [00:18:07] Jim Keyes: Oh, no, I like that. I thought you were gonna say R22. R22s scare me. They're so light. The Schweitzer wasn't quite as light as the R22, but they're great aircraft and Robinson does a nice job. But as you know, it's just frustrating because it's like, oh, this is great. I can take off and land from anywhere, but I can't go anywhere because it's just not fast enough. [00:18:29] John Ramstead: Well, out here in Colorado, the max, the never exceed speed here has never been greater than 90 knots. [00:18:36] Jim Keyes: Right, right. Because. [00:18:38] John Ramstead: Because of the density. [00:18:39] Jim Keyes: Yeah. The altitude. Yeah, exactly. So then the next jump up, you have to get into a single or a twin. And even a single engine aircraft is not going to go fast enough to get you anywhere. So you're now into a twin. If you're into a twin, then you might have to go to a jet. But then you're limited with the airports that you can land at, you know, Runway length, et cetera, et cetera. So there is a sweet spot in this portfolio that begs for what XTI is building. This ability to move at 280 knots and to go somewhere in a relatively reasonable period of time. And for shot holes, by the way, in my jet, by the time I climb up to 25,000ft and then descend back down, I may go a little bit faster, I may go 400 knots, but the distance is going to be. As a result, the time from point A to point B is going to. [00:19:36] John Ramstead: Be a matter of relatively equivalent anyway. [00:19:39] Jim Keyes: Pretty close. Yeah, it's going to be minutes. [00:19:41] John Ramstead: And also you have to take off and land from an airport. [00:19:43] Jim Keyes: Well, yeah, by the time I have to fly to an airport and then drive to my destination versus, in my case, it would have been fabulous to have the XTI aircraft. I could have taken it off literally from my backyard. If not Addison airport, which is five minutes from my house and could have landed at a ranch that I had outside of Austin that was literally an hour from the airport. So it would have saved me an immense amount of time. [00:20:11] John Ramstead: I got a good friend of mine, he's a former Air Force pilot, but he's an hour and a half from Colorado Springs. So he has a helicopter to get from there. [00:20:18] Jim Keyes: Yeah. [00:20:19] John Ramstead: To the airport. Because he does a lot of travel. [00:20:21] Jim Keyes: Yeah. [00:20:22] John Ramstead: And he wants one of these for that. He goes, actually, he mapped it out. 80% of the flights he takes. He could actually take off from his backyard and go do his business and be back that night. [00:20:32] Jim Keyes: Right. [00:20:32] John Ramstead: So. Right, interesting. So also, when you're thinking about the portfolio approach for yourself and you talked about kind of the different niches, what do you think for yourself when you're looking at some of those key drivers of return. Right. As you're looking at as like a shareholder or an investor, what do you think is going to be driving this? You know, the people that break out in this space, what are we going to see from those companies where we look back and go, okay, those are the guys that change the world? [00:21:02] Jim Keyes: Yeah. A couple of things I think. One is this functionality. I think that finding the sweet spot in that portfolio approach that meets a need. Too often people will come up with technology for the sake of the technology, not to, not to satisfy a need. I'm a retailer. I like first drill into what does the consumer want and then go make that. And that's where I see XTI fitting in the portfolio is, is, is, is just begging for that use occasion. So that's one thing. Satisfying that use occasion, that's practical, that's functional. A second thing I think is going to be the practicality of, of the aircraft. Because let's face it, learning to fly is challenging. Learning to fly a helicopter is, as an example, is quite intense. I don't fly a helicopter regularly today. If I do, I bring an instructor with me, even though I have my helicopter rating. Because as you know, or will know if you don't yet you walk away from a helicopter for a month and it's a whole new experience. You get back in and you've got to get your, your three dimensional, three, you know, three axis handling capabilities. [00:22:19] John Ramstead: Well, you know, that's what I tell people when you're flying an airplane. You got the airflow that provides stability across the fuselage and the wings and the tails. But when you're below 40 knots in a helicopter, the only stability is your, your hands on the controls and inputs that you're giving it. Yeah, you know, that's Also something to think about, too, this whole area of flight, when we're transitioning below, let's say, stall speed of a wing for our aircraft or anybody else. Joby Archer, all these, this learning, you know, the flight control dynamics. We're going to be coming out with some flight laws. Flight controls fly by wires and systems around that that I believe are going to be game. They're going to be the enabling technologies for things that we haven't even thought of yet. [00:23:00] Jim Keyes: Yeah, exactly. Well, and these are the things that. That can change the game because they can make flying inherently safer and more practical for more people. You know, that's why the average Joe doesn't just jump in a helicopter and learn how to fly and then jump in it every couple of months and have a nice joyride. They can't. It's just. It requires too much. [00:23:21] John Ramstead: Well, it requires mastery. [00:23:23] Jim Keyes: Yeah. [00:23:24] John Ramstead: And proficiency. And if you take a month or two off, you will have neither. [00:23:27] Jim Keyes: Exactly. That's exactly right. So that, that functionality is going to be very important. And I mean, the aerospace industry is littered with examples. People say, oh, I want to fly a side. I want to fly a Cirrus because it's got the parachute that makes me feel safe. Well, you know why the parachute's there? Because it's got really crappy stall characteristics. And the parachute helped with the certification because low and slow, the Cirrus is not a great handling airplane with its stall characteristics. So the parachute is there, you know, as a. [00:24:03] John Ramstead: But now they changed the whole wing. So. [00:24:05] Jim Keyes: Yeah, yeah, I shouldn't, I shouldn't trash on Cirrus because I do love. I do love the aircraft. I had a Cirrus myself, but. [00:24:11] John Ramstead: But it's SR22 or the jet. [00:24:12] Jim Keyes: I had the SR22. Yeah, the jet. If I'm gonna fly a jet, I want two of those little twisty things going around. [00:24:18] John Ramstead: I don't blame you. [00:24:20] Jim Keyes: Anyway, the. The. But to your point, to your point, there's so much you can do with technology to make flying much safer and much more accessible for everyone. That's what XTI will do. It will take helicopter functionality and put it in the hands of people that would otherwise perhaps fly a 172 and now can evolve into the XTI. [00:24:46] John Ramstead: Yeah. We had their CEO on recently said that part of their vision is to. To bring vertical accessibility to a billion people worldwide over the next 10, 15 years. [00:24:57] Jim Keyes: Right, exactly. [00:24:59] John Ramstead: So many things. We could talk about change there, but I want people to get to know you a little bit better because it's also the source behind your book. I believe it's also your skill sets that led you to be in the book. You know, the, the, the front office of two Fortune 100 companies and the work you're doing now, but the way you see the world. And you were telling a story over lunch, you were one of those kids sitting in a cardboard box with crayon markings everywhere, watching the Apollo missions go up. [00:25:24] Jim Keyes: Oh, yeah. [00:25:25] John Ramstead: Could you talk a little bit about how your passion for aviation started and some of the stories about how you met some of these astronauts along the way and how that I would also love to have you. Well, I'll ask you a follow up question once you share that. [00:25:36] Jim Keyes: Sure. Well, I grew up in the shadow of Robert Goddard's experiments. He grew up in central Massachusetts, Worcester, Mass, Auburn, where he did a lot of work. And so I grew up learning about rockets and his influence on modern rocketry. There'll be 100th anniversary coming up next March, by the way, of Robert Goddard's first rocket launch, which is just hard to imagine with what we're doing today. So I grew up with this interest and of course I was a child of the Gemini and Apollo days, actually Mercury and watching the first manned spacecra and was just excited about these guys. So yes, I used to sit in a cardboard box wanting to be an astronaut, believing that I was with my imagination flying in space and trying to build my own rockets, almost burning down the neighborhood in the course of trying to do it. But that evolved into as I went to college and then beyond my desire to go into space. It turns out I was post Vietnam era and missed the pilot hiring window. And so I chose not to make it a career. But instead, as soon as I had my first paycheck, I started flying lessons. Dial forward. I have the privilege of running these companies and doing some interesting things and having some measure of success. And I got into an organization called Horatio Algeria. It's an organization out of D.C. where they recognize 10 people or so per year for the last hundred years. And they recognize people who grew up with modest means and were able to accomplish something in life. Here I find myself on stage, Washington D.C. getting a medal around my neck at the Supreme Court. [00:27:37] John Ramstead: Wow. [00:27:37] Jim Keyes: Next to Buzz Aldrin. And I get to say that I am here today because I was inspired by guys like Buzz who were ordinary people doing extraordinary things. And that's the way I saw the astronaut corps. These are just regular guys. They weren't rich, they weren't, you know, wealthy or I think I already said that. [00:28:04] John Ramstead: They didn't dedicated, they were focused, they were on purpose, they were on mission, they were smart. Yep. [00:28:09] Jim Keyes: And they went to school and they learned. They were engineers, they were scientists, and. [00:28:14] John Ramstead: And they also took pilots. Full accountability for their. Not only their actions, but the results they were getting in life. Which definitely ties into your philosophy. [00:28:22] Jim Keyes: Exactly. That's exactly right. So I was so inspired by these men, and here I am on stage with one. Well, it turns out I got to know Buzz and be friends, and then he introduced me to another, several of the other astronauts I got to know. It was a privilege to know a number of the Apollo astronauts and shuttle pilots and space station astronauts. So I've been blessed with getting to know them well. [00:28:49] John Ramstead: Something that stood out, you know, we always think about that. That's an elite group. But as you got to know them, is there anything that stood out? Like, here's a common thread through this group of extraordinary people. [00:29:00] Jim Keyes: You mean apart from being characters? Because everyone is a character. [00:29:03] John Ramstead: I'm sure they are. That's right. [00:29:05] Jim Keyes: They all have some unique things. Yeah. Here's the common thread. Thanks for asking. On the COVID of my book, On Purpose is an image of the world from the perspective of the space shuttle. Let's say I put that on purpose, because what I find is everyone who leaves the planet Earth, even William Shatner, when he went up on Blue Origin, they come back and they've got a whole different perspective. And when they look at the Earth from space, they see this beautiful planet. They don't see borders, they don't see wars, races, religions. What they see is this beautiful planet that, when they return to Earth, is mired in perception. And so the difference that I see astronauts have is they have perspective. Perspective is when you step back, you and I can see it from our aircraft at 40 to 45,000ft, just barely see the curvature of the Earth. It gives you a different perspective. And that perspective is something that I wove throughout the book. And I think it's critically important for all of us to take responsibility for, because it's that perception that makes us angry. You turn on the Internet and you go, oh, man, look at this thing on the Internet. That makes me mad. Well, anger turns to hatred, hatred turns to violence. But each of us has the opportunity to change our perception by having perspective, by stepping back from it and saying, was that true? Where did that come from? Who wrote that? What was their objective? [00:30:56] John Ramstead: Or if that really does make me angry, because there's something in there that's just counter to my values. [00:31:01] Jim Keyes: Yeah. [00:31:01] John Ramstead: Can I make a choice now to be go part of a solution versus jumping into the. You know, jumping into the mob. [00:31:08] Jim Keyes: Exactly. I. [00:31:09] John Ramstead: Two different choices, John. [00:31:10] Jim Keyes: You'll. [00:31:11] John Ramstead: Same starting point. [00:31:12] Jim Keyes: You'll appreciate this. I call it using my aviator brain, not my caveman brain. And here's what. Let me. I'll show you. [00:31:20] John Ramstead: I love it. [00:31:21] Jim Keyes: Yeah. Our caveman brain. We're human. We can't help it. We have an amygdala. Our amygdala is a little portion. I knew nothing about this till I wrote the book. I had to go research, right? And I started studying neuroscience. And I was like, oh, wait, no wonder we do this. The amygdala kept us from being eaten by a lion or a dinosaur or whatever. And it was. It triggers that fight or flight. It protects us from getting hurt if we are in real mortal danger. And that's a good thing for a human. But there. We don't have any natural predators today. There are very, very few instances in our entire lifetime that you need that amygdala to trigger your fight or flight reaction. Yet it shows up in the boardroom, it shows up online. People are ready to duke it out. [00:32:11] John Ramstead: You know, it shows up in that big meeting. [00:32:13] Jim Keyes: It shows up in that big meeting show. [00:32:15] John Ramstead: It shows up in the meeting, leading your team, and you got to talk about the change coming. [00:32:20] Jim Keyes: Shows up in the situation room. [00:32:21] John Ramstead: It does. [00:32:21] Jim Keyes: You know, somebody gets mad, you know, I'm ready or the fight part's bad enough. What's even worse I found as a CEO, is that passive aggressive leader. You know, they're sitting in the boardroom. Yes, sir. Yes, boss. Yep. Oh, of course. What a great idea. And then they walk out and they go, that's the dumbest thing I ever heard. [00:32:39] John Ramstead: And they're throwing hand grenades into the whole culture. [00:32:41] Jim Keyes: Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's worse than. Than the fighter. But both of those behaviors, passive aggressive behavior, that fighting, battling to the end behavior, both of those are human, very human. Human reactions caused by perceptions. And here's what the pilot does. And I use this analogy because I tell people, how would you like your captain? You're in a commercial flight, you get a crisis, something goes wrong in the cockpit. How'd you like that captain to trigger that caveman brain? If he fights, he's going to rip the wings off. If he flights, he's going to look at the co pilot and go, I don't know. You fix it. You don't want either of those behaviors in the cockpit. So, you know, what guys like you and I do, we go into a simulator and let them try to kill us for three days. And you know what that's doing? And I didn't even realize this until I sat down and started. [00:33:39] John Ramstead: You did your first checkride like that? [00:33:40] Jim Keyes: Yeah. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. And, and, and here's what they're doing. They're reprogramming your human brain to bypass your amygdala and go straight to your prefrontal cortex so that you use data. [00:33:56] John Ramstead: Use data. Look for options. [00:33:58] Jim Keyes: Look for options. [00:33:59] John Ramstead: Right. [00:33:59] Jim Keyes: You have your memory items, and once you go through your memory items in a crisis, what do you do? You turn to your emergency procedures checklist. And now you're going 1, 2, 3. [00:34:10] John Ramstead: Unless you're flying a helicopter, because you don't have time to do that. And you have to memorize the entire checklist for everything. [00:34:16] Jim Keyes: Everything's learned, 100%. That's exactly right. Yeah. Because if you take your hand off to scratch your nose, you'll go wildly out of control. [00:34:21] John Ramstead: Yeah. You go, yeah, yeah. Over key. Yeah. I won't say it. [00:34:24] Jim Keyes: Yeah, that exactly. But the point is, you've reprogrammed your brain as a pilot to overcome fear. And you're overcoming fear to be able to solve a problem with knowledge and with data, which is so much more effective than resorting to your perceptions, which, gee, I think maybe I'm upside down, rather than relying on your instruments. [00:34:51] John Ramstead: Right, So a couple of things as we wrap up. I want to summarize. I've been able to work with thousands of companies all over the world, every culture, the most transfer. And, you know, the military. We do a lot of work with the military, but the most transformational leaders I have seen is what you we started out talking about. And these are people that take personal responsibility to how they think, the emotions that are sourced from those thinking. Because then our actions are always sourced from how we're feeling, by the way. And they take responsible for not only those actions, but those than the outcomes. And they're always seeking to have better thoughts, feelings, actions. That's exactly what you're talking about. We're also talking about that aviator brain. It's also the other thing in there is, you know, it's about mastery. It's about learning. You know, if I understand people or I understand how to lead through change. Have I read a book on that? Do I understand the market, what's happening? Whatever it happens to be, whatever you're struggling with, there's a way to get mentorship. There's a way to get help. There's a way to read a book on that. But then you have to apply it and find some help people to apply it. And right now that's great because, you know, there's so many cultural differences. And I know some leaders that are. We're bringing in people all across the different generational spectrum and they see the gray beards, so to speak, and the young kids both as assets because they're saying, hey, what? These groups should be able to complement each other. And you know what, when you think that way, it actually happens in the culture. [00:36:16] Jim Keyes: It does. [00:36:17] John Ramstead: If you're worrying about conflict and they're different. And how do I change this group to work with this group? I think that's the wrong premise. And those are the ones that I think keep struggling. [00:36:27] Jim Keyes: Yeah. [00:36:27] John Ramstead: And right now I'm seeing some. I'm so encouraged by what I'm seeing. There's so much chaos in the world. But the people I know, you know what, they're doing great things with great people, building great teams and I'm excited about the future. And so just with that, Jim, what is like as we land the plane, what's like one thing you like to read? Leave the listeners with. [00:36:46] Jim Keyes: Yeah, so many more than one. But let me try to zero in. I'm going to go back to this fear thing. And Ibn Rushda was the inspiration, I think, for George Lucas when he had Yoda teaching Luke ibn Rushda 2,500 years ago, ancient philosopher wrote that ignorance leads to fear, fear leads to anger, anger leads to hatred, hatred leads to violence. Very negative cycle. Well, what I believe is that as you said in the beginning, we are in control of our own destiny. We're in control. We're humans. We can rise above arcade membrane, replace ignorance with knowledge. Knowledge leads to understanding, understanding leads to hope, Hope leads to peace. I know it sounds Pollyannish, but so many of the problems in the world, so much opportunity that awaits humanity when we harness the power of education. Overcome or harness the power of technology and education overcome our own petty fears of each other and of our differences and rise above all of that to create new ways of being, new forms of commerce, new forms of flying, new forms of working together. The future is really, really bright if we look at it that way. [00:38:21] John Ramstead: You know, a good summary to that, Jim. Education is freedom. And here's the other one. Change equals opportunity. Because I like that one too. [00:38:30] Jim Keyes: Exactly. [00:38:30] John Ramstead: Well, Jim has been fantastic. Getting to, you know, thank you for flying up here. We got to greet you in your. Your citation as you rolled in here. And we're going to have a fun afternoon and look forward to our next conversation. [00:38:41] Jim Keyes: Thanks for having me. This is a great opportunity, and I really am excited about the future of xdi.