[00:00:03] Speaker A: We are just basically another pair of eyes for the pilot. Right. So the pilot looks at one point at a time. We have 240 degrees. Look at it all the time. And it's optical, so we use optical cameras at the moment.
And so this is an extra sensor that we bring into all of the sensors that you already have, like ADS B, your radar and so forth. It's an extra sensor that senses non cooperative traffic. We see birds, we see small drones, paragliders and so forth. So it's just an extra help and it really reduces the workload of the pilot.
[00:00:37] Speaker B: Welcome to Hangar X Studios where former fighter pilot and host John Ramstead takes us on a journey across aerospace as it enters an historic period of innovation and transformation.
Our guests include aviation experts, pilots, financiers, military leaders and innovators of all types.
Buckle up for another episode of Hangar X.
[00:01:07] Speaker C: Today's episode is brought to you by our platinum sponsor, XTI Aerospace. They are powering the vertical economy, building a long range VTOL and you can find
[email protected] now please remember to like, comment and share on this channel and enjoy today's podcast.
Welcome to hangerx podcast and we are live at Verticon and this is where we interview disruptors, innovators, executives and people that are making news and sharing with us what we need to know before the rest of the world does. And with that, today we have BAS governor on bas. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:45] Speaker A: Thank you, thank you.
[00:01:46] Speaker C: And you're with a fascinating company called Daedalian and you guys are bringing aviation intelligence and AI out. And we were having a little conversation before we started, but could you tell me a little bit more about what ddalian is and what you guys do?
[00:01:59] Speaker A: Right, so we are developing the first, let's say AI enabled avionics. So we are using AI machine learning to actually detect other aircraft traffic, non cooperative traffic positioning systems. So we know where we are. Landing guidance wire.
Yeah. Wire detection and stuff like that.
[00:02:20] Speaker C: Yeah. That's fantastic. Now what's your. You were telling me your background, so it's really interesting. So what's your background that led you up to being CEO of the Dalian?
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Yeah, I'm an aerospace engineer. I have a background and I did projects at Airbus A380, 350 large airplanes. And I went to an MRO. A Swiss big.
Yeah, let's Swiss MRO.
[00:02:39] Speaker C: Yeah.
[00:02:39] Speaker A: Maintenance and also modifications of large, large aircraft.
And then I went to a Swiss company doing maintenance for the air Force. Also some modifications, cockpit upgrades on Super Puma and did some stuff on the F18. And then I was asked by Luke, I met Luke, the founder of the company. He founded it 2016.
And so it was growing. We have 150 people. And then he asked me if I would like to join. And it's a super exciting company. It's going to be a paradigm shift, I think, in terms of safety of what we do. Right.
And so I think it's a once in a lifetime opportunity to actually go do this and bring this technology into the market. And I think that's very exciting. So I decided to join.
[00:03:21] Speaker C: Yeah. And you know, there's been some incredible articles written about AI in aviation, both from aircraft design, safety, flight control systems, flight laws. You know, you talked about positioning, but what does AI kind of bring that maybe the public doesn't really understand? Hey, that's an area where AI can.
This could just supercharge this part of aerospace, Navy or accelerate it even.
[00:03:47] Speaker A: Yeah, right. So at the moment what we say is we are just basically another pair of eyes for the pilot. Right. So the pilot looks at one point at a time. We have 240 degrees, look at it all the time. And it's optical. So we use optical cameras at the moment.
And so this is an extra sensor that we bring into all of the sensors that you already have, like ADS B, your radar and so forth. It's an extra sensor that senses non cooperative traffic. We see birds, we see small drones, paragliders and so forth. So it's just an extra help. And it really reduces the workload of the pilot. I mean increase safety by doing this.
[00:04:23] Speaker C: Yeah. And now we're here at Verticon, so there's a tremendous amount of talk and technology here about making flying safer, more automated. We're also looking at some of the VTOLs and there's going to be a big transition between vertical flight to horizontal flight.
Where does AI and Daedalian play in looking at flight controls, pilot workload and things like that?
[00:04:48] Speaker A: So our functions that we are looking at at the moment, we see other traffic, as I said, birds and so forth. So that's an extra pair of eyes looking out there.
Positioning system. So if you are in a GPS denied environment, we still know based on our technology where we are have the position there.
We do landing site finding.
So we find landing sites that are suitable and help the pilot with that.
We do landing guidance. So if you have your helipad, we use our technology to guide the pilot to that helipad.
[00:05:24] Speaker C: So is it giving you like navigation Cues on your Garmin or a heads up display if you have it. Or is that kind of what it.
[00:05:33] Speaker A: Would do or able to do? Yeah, that's the aim that we have. Right. So that we have our box. So we have our cameras, we have our box that calculates and then we would input our signal into a cockpit.
[00:05:44] Speaker C: You know what's cool about that is because like the F18, I used to be a Navy pilot, so the F18s, now their landing mode on the carrier is automatic. It's giving all of that feedback and signals in case the autopilot disconnects, but then you just follow it. You're talking about actually taking that amazing technology that has dramatically improved safety, but putting it in the cockpit of a helicopter or an airplane coming into land at night, bad weather, small landing space. Is that fair?
[00:06:08] Speaker A: That's fair, yeah. That's to say. Right. I mean, the safety levels of commercial aviation are super good, right?
[00:06:14] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:06:14] Speaker A: And yet there's so much to be improved on. Let's say the smaller airplanes, the smaller helicopters, the low, complex helicopter operations. And I think this technology is able to do that.
[00:06:26] Speaker C: Yeah. Well, as we all know in safety, one accident's one too many. Yeah, right. Yeah, because.
But now you talked about a little bit about, you know, this visual recognition, you know, and I do a lot of flying and I have ADS B and I have radar.
What would be the value or the purpose of adding another system to basically enhance what ADS B and radar already give me? Is that a fair question?
[00:06:46] Speaker A: That's a fair question. But it's just another sensor, Right? It just gives you another sensor, another cue.
We detect also birds, we detect small drones, paragliders that you wouldn't with your ADS B. So we're just another sensor and we merge the sensor, sensor fusion, get all that information and then basically display it to the pilot in this case.
[00:07:12] Speaker C: So it's given me a higher level of situational awareness.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: Correct.
[00:07:15] Speaker C: Now, what I do know is ADS B, sometimes there's also a lag.
They'll call traffic out for me and then I'll look on the ADS B and they don't match when I see it visually. So that's sometimes a little unnerving, especially when you're coming into a busy airport.
But I did have a question for you. So AI, help me understand more what AI is in this application, because I think of it as kind of like this black box.
We're familiar with ChatGPT. I know how that works with a language model. But now we're talking about Science and engineering, data visual processing. I do own a Tesla. I understand how AI and machine learning in that environment a little bit, but it seems a little black box, a little almost non deterministic.
So as you know, the pilot community, what does it take, you think, to adopt maybe this is a tool that they feel really comfortable with. Right, that makes sense.
[00:08:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it makes sense. Good, Very good.
Very good thing to ask. Right. So yeah, ChatGPT is a great example.
It's generating new information, it's collecting information. There's a, a whole lot of information there. It's a fountain of information and it keeps adding and so forth. Right. What we do is actually with our algorithms, we look what's inside the water, if you like.
So we're not making new information if you like, but we're really looking into what is in there. So we're sort of a lab and finding out.
[00:08:37] Speaker C: So you're using accurate real time data and you also know the historical data inside the aircraft and outside, looking at patterns and trends. So you're not looking at external sources to try to fill in gaps in knowledge. Is that fair?
[00:08:50] Speaker A: Yeah, that's fair to say. So we really use that and see what is in the air, really, and use our algorithms. So if you say it's non deterministic, that's not entirely the case. So what we do is we train our algorithms. The machine learning has been done such that once we see that for any given input, you get the same output and that's the moment where we freeze the algorithm and that's going to go on the aircraft. Okay, so and it doesn't learn on the fly. So it, because you need to have a controlled environment. Right. In aviation that's the case. So it doesn't learn during the flight, it's only getting, let's say, releases uploaded that are really thoroughly checked and the output is guaranteed for any, it's a given input. Right. So that's how we say it's, it's not non deterministic because for any given input you get the same output.
[00:09:41] Speaker C: Okay, that answers a big question for me. And how does that work with certification? Where's that? Where are you guys with, you know, with EASA or faa? What does it look like for you guys?
[00:09:51] Speaker A: Right, so that's been a long story. Of course, this company has been on this for nine years now.
[00:09:56] Speaker C: Okay.
[00:09:57] Speaker A: How hard can it be? Is what our founder always says. But it turns out to be really hard. It's a long way.
We have developed all of the processes, the tools we've worked with AAS and the FAA for those nine years as well on how this can be done.
So it's all there. We have developed hardware because of course, the hardware wasn't there that it needs.
The compute power is relatively high.
So we've done that and now we are. We've passed the second audit last year in November with both of them.
[00:10:28] Speaker C: You did okay.
[00:10:29] Speaker A: Congratulations. There's four audits. Right. As you know. So we've done SOI2 in November. And yeah, that's where we are. So I see no reason why we shouldn't reach our first certification this year. Let's see what happens. But this year, let's see what happens.
[00:10:43] Speaker C: We're rooting for you.
[00:10:44] Speaker A: We're going for it.
[00:10:45] Speaker C: Now you guys are doing something that nobody else has done in aviation.
Are there some major players? I know there's some big names here at this conference that are interested in what you guys are doing.
[00:10:55] Speaker A: Yeah, of course there are. Right. We have our.
[00:10:57] Speaker C: Can you name drop? Are you allowed to name drop?
[00:10:59] Speaker A: I can name drop a few. I think we've done some testing with Leonardo 2022, I think it was.
We have a partnership with Moog, so that works really well.
[00:11:09] Speaker C: Great company.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Really working well with Moog. So I'm excited about what's going on there. Right. In that partnership. Eclipse has tested our system.
So I think there's a couple of names out there and there's a few more, of course, that I'm not at liberty to.
[00:11:24] Speaker C: You're under NDA.
[00:11:25] Speaker A: Okay.
[00:11:25] Speaker C: I could tell you, but then I'd have to kill you. Yeah. Okay.
You know, since you guys are in this really, I think, cutting edge space of aviation and I believe it's where things are going.
[00:11:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:36] Speaker C: I would love like your prognostication. What do you think the cockpit, the aircraft of the 10, 20 years of the aerospace. What do you. What do you think some things that we're going to be. There'll be reality down the road.
[00:11:48] Speaker A: Right. Well, at the moment, as we go on. Right. This is. As I said, they're going to be a paradigm shift in terms of safety, especially in this market where we are in. Right. In the. In the smaller, low, low flight helicopter operations, the unmanned market.
So what you'll see is that gradually automation will improve. I mean, this technology is basically helping automation with other tasks that have not been able to be done before. Right. So that's going to improve automation, all of it. And then gradually, once we.
[00:12:17] Speaker C: It seems like that's going to be a perfect fit also. With a lot of the UAS platforms and manned and unmanned, you know, larger drones, EVTOLs, things like that. Fair?
[00:12:26] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely, that's fair. So all the automation is going to increase and once we have more experience, more data driven, driven facts about how this works, I think more of this stuff can be done, let's say autonomously. Yeah, it'll take a while. I'm also sure about that. But I think we start to generate that data and make that experience over the next few years.
[00:12:47] Speaker C: Okay, so now I got a real question.
Not that the rest weren't real.
So as a pilot, we're bringing in more and more autonomy and autonomous work.
I've been a pilot for 30 years. So what's the pilot's job in 10 years?
[00:13:00] Speaker A: Right.
[00:13:01] Speaker C: What do you think?
[00:13:02] Speaker A: So pilots are here to stay.
[00:13:03] Speaker C: They're here. Okay. It's a good answer.
[00:13:05] Speaker A: Super convinced that's going to be. We also have a lot of pilots in our team, right?
[00:13:08] Speaker C: Yep.
[00:13:09] Speaker A: We even encourage people to do a ppl so they understand what, what a pilot sees and it's okay and stuff like that. So quite a number of people that actually do their ppl. So I think pilots are here to stay. And this is just another technology that helps increase safety, that helps reduce the workload of the pilots. I mean, the surroundings is going to be more and more complex. Right. There's more helicopters, you have the uess in the air, you have drones in the air, you have the evtols coming up.
[00:13:38] Speaker C: So 10 years from now, the airspace could be completely different.
[00:13:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:13:43] Speaker C: Well, I know like in the military, both the Hornet that you worked on in Swiss and the F35B, the automation allows the pilot to actually focus on the mission, and then we can actually look at expanding the mission, having better mission accomplishment. Correct, Right. And that could be carrying a sick passenger, a load of cargo and executive. There's what. Whatever the mission of that airplane is, how do I do it effective and safely. But you guys are doing some exciting things. I would love to stay in touch.
I'd love to even have you and your team come on the podcast at a later date when we can do a longer form.
[00:14:15] Speaker A: Right.
[00:14:15] Speaker C: And really actually dig into what's. What's really almost underneath the covers today. We kind of talked about surface level, but I'm. I'm also an engineer, so I, if you guys want to have a little deeper discussion, I'd love to have you guys back on. How's that sound?
[00:14:27] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. I'll be very glad to do that.
[00:14:29] Speaker C: Okay, wonderful. Well, thank you, boss. And keep knocking them alive out there. And thanks for coming over.
[00:14:34] Speaker A: Thanks a lot for the opportunity to talk to you.
