Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: The transition from vertical flight to forward flight and back for landing is probably our largest technical challenge.
[00:00:12] Speaker B: Welcome to Hangar X Studios, where former fighter pilot and host John Ramsted takes us on a journey across aerospace as it enters an historic period of innovation and transformation.
Our guests include aviation experts, pilots, financiers, military leaders, and innovators of all types.
Buckle up for another episode of Hanger X.
Hey, welcome to the Hanger X studio podcast sponsored by XTI Aircraft. And today we have an incredible interview with David Brody. He started two aerospace companies in the VTOL space, has been responsible with his engineering teams for a number of patents, best selling author, attorney, and all around great guy. And today we're going to be talking about the future of VTOL. But first of all, Dave, welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:07] Speaker A: It's great to be here. John, thanks.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: So great to have you here. And I would love it. You know, you got out of college, you were telling me a little bit, you had a long career as an attorney, but now you've started and founded two high impact aerospace companies in VTol. Tell us a little bit about this journey through that you've had and why aviation.
[00:01:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Thank you. Actually, while I was practicing law, I started the companies. I just retired a few years ago from my law practice. But back in 2005, I happened to read an article in a magazine about a guy named Paul Mohler who was trying to develop a personal air vehicle that looked like a small jet but takes off and lands vertically. And so I've always been fascinated with science, technology and aircraft. And I just started looking into what was really out there. I was at looking at this article. I was at dinner with my family, and I was saying to my young boys at the time, someday in your lifetime, there's going to be a personal air vehicle that you can land and take off in your backyard and use like we use cars now.
Everybody's heard about flying cars. And so I just got interested in trying to see what was out there. And there really wasn't any practical aircraft being developed, I thought. And I started looking into what might work as a personal air vehicle that either would be piloted by professional pilots or would be so easy to fly that people could pilot the aircraft themselves. And that led to the formation of AVX Aircraft company in Fort Worth, Texas, which is now a small but very successful defense contractor and design engineering firm.
[00:03:02] Speaker B: So when you decided to start AVX, what was that initial idea, that initial vision that led to AVX?
[00:03:10] Speaker A: Yeah, it was the, a development, really, like on the back of an envelope at first of a, what's called a compound helicopter, that is, if you take a traditional helicopter that just has one main rotor and a tail and a tail rotor, and you want to make it smaller, the first thing you'd want to do is get rid of the long tail and tail rotor. So this idea, which wasn't totally my original or mine originally, to have coaxial rotors, that is, rotors that counter rotate so you don't need the tail and the tail rotor, that was the first concept that led to the formation of AVX.
[00:03:55] Speaker B: And what was it about that? I mean, you could have started any aerospace company. You were fascinated with aviation. What was it about that solving that problem specifically that that just engaged you so much because you poured your life, capital, reputation into starting AVX?
[00:04:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. It was the idea that some form of that smaller aircraft could someday be marketed and commercially successful. And I was fortunate to be introduced to a guy named Troy Gaffey, who had recently retired from Bell helicopter after being a senior executive there for decades. And he put a team together, and with his and the team's knowledge, we advanced that basic idea of coaxial rotors and rear ducted fans for forward propulsion and directional control on that original helicopter and pursued raising money and getting strategic partners to support the whole project.
[00:05:07] Speaker B: And you guys also competed for the next generation of helicopter, didn't you, for a us contract?
[00:05:13] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:05:14] Speaker A: So what happened was we spent a few years trying to raise money for a civilian version of the helicopter, and then realized that there were a couple of opportunities proposed by the military where they were seeking requests for proposal on. First, it was the oh 58 Kio warrior helicopter that our team at AVX had actually been involved in developing decades prior to that. And we knew a lot about military contracts, military aircraft, and that led to AVX Aircraft company competing, along with the major companies, Boeing, Sikorsky, Bell, on a couple of major military contracts between 2012 and 2020.
[00:06:03] Speaker B: And at the end of that 2020, you guys actually won the next generation contract. Right. But then, if I understand, the project got canceled.
[00:06:12] Speaker A: No, we were down selected over several years in two major programs, what was called JMR, the joint multirole and Farah, the future attack reconnaissance aircraft. And that FaRA was ultimately canceled. But we were not the finalist on that when we made it to the, like I said, a couple of rounds. And then the larger companies were ultimately selected.
[00:06:39] Speaker B: Yeah. And as you were putting this together, the co actual for this advanced attack helicopter for the military, but when you saw the ducted fans for the extra velocity for this helicopter. Now, you started to kind of see the pathway to commercialization, if I understand it correctly, right in the vtol space.
[00:06:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So in 2012, actually, I was looking at the rear ducted fans of the AVX helicopter and thought that those ducted fans, ducted propellers could be used not only for forward propulsion and directional control, but also rotate and be connected with a fixed wing airplane, a civilian airplane that could have tremendous potential in the civilian market. And so everyone has seen on tv or in other places, the military fixed wing vertical takeoff and landing aircraft, such as the Osprey V 22 the Marines have used for many years, that is a tilt rotor. And the Harrier fighter jet, the US F 35 B fighter jet. All those are fixed wing aircraft, military aircraft that take off and land vertically. But to be able to develop a civilian fixed wing fast and far vertical takeoff and landing aircraft was a whole other project and challenge. And that's what we have then done with the formation of XTi aerospace. XTi Aircraft company, which is now XTi Aerospace, publicly traded, that grew out of the rear ducted fans on the AVX helicopter.
[00:08:31] Speaker B: Yeah. And before we get more into, I think, what you're developing at XTi, I'd love for you to share your passion around vtol. And I know that you're a historian of this entire space, so I'd love for you to kind of walk us through what's happened in this industry where we're at now and what you see in the future.
[00:08:51] Speaker A: Yeah, we're really at a transformational point in history as far as air transportation, because over the next several years, there's an entire new industry with literally hundreds of original equipment manufacturers, manufacturing companies, developing mostly what are called evtols. It's e for electric vertical takeoff and landing because they're battery powered.
There are others that are hybrid. That is, they have liquid fuel and combined with battery power. And then there's the Trifan 600, which is the XTi aerospace aircraft. That is the traditional two certified turbine engines that will power be the propulsion system for that aircraft. But all of them are part of the civilian game changing evolution and introduction of vertical takeoff and landing aircraft that are going to impact everybody in society, in areas urban and rural, all over the world over the next several years.
[00:10:04] Speaker B: Dave, would you differentiate what is the difference between the EVTOL and what you're talking about with the Trifan 600? And why did you choose turbine engines instead of going with electric?
[00:10:15] Speaker A: Sure. So you have to actually go back to the invention of the helicopter, which Igor Sikorsky first got a patent on in 1935, 1st flew in 1939. And, of course, we've had helicopters. They played a role starting in World War two and tremendous unique vertical takeoff and landing aircraft.
But they're slow and somewhat noisy, and so they can perform unique missions.
The aircraft that can hover longer than any other type of aircraft, they, of course, take people on sightseeing, move executives around, and government officials, but they're a little too noisy and not as clean burning as the electric vertical takeoff and landing aircraft that are now being developed by, as I said, hundreds of companies. So that's what will cause this transformation, because the evtols are primarily going to be air taxis for relatively short distances, not particularly fast, not as fast or as long range as a helicopter. And we'll have a specific mission that people will use, just like you use a taxi on the ground, go relatively short distances at relatively slow speeds. The XTi aerospace aircraft, the Trifan 600, is in a different category than all of the others, different than helicopters, different than EVtos, because it is long range and it is fast. So in order to have those performance capabilities, you need turbine engines, like in jets and in some helicopters, to have that power and that ability for long range and speed. So that's in a different category than most of the other aircraft.
[00:12:19] Speaker B: Yeah. So you're almost talking about two things here.
When you were thinking of this, were you thinking of that mission first, this vertical takeoff, long range, like, here's a capability that's missing. So kind of that mission aspect of it? Or did you say, hey, there's a problem here that I'm trying to solve? I mean, how did you get to this design? Does that make sense?
[00:12:43] Speaker A: Yes. Yeah.
The problem solving is exactly what led to the tri fan and the formation of XTI, and that is a civilian aircraft that can be developed at a price that is a total cost that's less than the multibillion dollar military programs that led to the fighter jets and the tilt rotors that exist and have been successful for the military. So the performance, the problem to solve was, how do you develop a civilian vtol aircraft that we call vertical, fast, and far? And so that's what we have solved.
We're in the development stage of the tri fan, but that's what it looks like we'll be able to end up with, as far as performance.
[00:13:45] Speaker B: So I like that vertical, fast, and far. And if you look at all the players. Right, a lot of the players that we hear about that people are investing in are the evtols they're short range from what I've seen, 50, maybe 100 miles, depending on what happens with battery technology and certifications and a lot of unknowns there.
But when we're looking at past that, where do you see this fitting into what aviation looks like five years out?
Yes, about five years from when a Trifan 600 is now in production, whenever that might be.
[00:14:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, we're looking at a couple of years to fly our first test aircraft. And then let's say, I mean, our current projections are about five years for FAA certification and for commercialization and delivering, starting delivery of the aircraft. We have at XTI Aerospace, we have about 700 conditional preorders.
Some of these are firm orders and some are reservations that are nonbinding contracts. But when we start to fulfill and start delivering the aircraft in about five years, I see a number of different manufacturers of evtols. The air taxis also out there in the market, probably starting a little before the Trifan enters the market.
And people are utilizing both the Trifan for longer, up to 700 miles range and delivering passengers and cargo. And then the EV tills also, as you say, shorter range, slower airport to downtown vertiports, from a large airport to, let's say, a place where you can land safely near a neighborhood to actually, like we said, perform the services of a taxi on the ground. But kind of like jets, right? Yeah, jetsons. But with, with professional pilots in all these aircraft, because they are, you know, you have to have safety as the first priority.
[00:16:07] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that's key.
So how do you see autonomous flight? And we're hearing about that with some of the evtols evolving?
[00:16:20] Speaker A: Yeah, the evtols part of their business plan is dependent on having autonomous aircraft so that you can fill every seat with a paying passenger.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: Yeah, let's define that real quick for people listening. What it means is there's no pilot.
It's like a Tesla on full remote driving.
And so you're trusting that aircraft to take off, navigate, land with no human operator. Correct.
[00:16:50] Speaker A: Exactly. And that's the ultimate vision of the air taxis, the evtols, because the business case, in a lot of cases for most manufacturers and operators, is dependent on having that pilot seat filled with a paying passenger.
But that's many years off. I don't, just like the predictions for autonomous cars was that we were going to have millions on the road by now, and we don't. There are pilot projects for autonomous cars in various places around the country, but autonomous aircraft, it's the same.
It's going to take longer than most people think.
But the piloted air taxis, the evtols, will start to enter into our lives, into society in the next few years, certainly before the end of the decade.
[00:17:49] Speaker B: Yeah. Now, as you've been interfacing and working with this brilliant engineering team, has there been an issue or a problem to solve on developing the Trifan 600 that's risen to the top, that you're like, wow, you know what? That is fascinating. I didn't anticipate that one.
[00:18:09] Speaker A: No.
A large, like 80. Some percent of the parts of the Trifan are off the shelf that XTI aerospace did not invent.
The avionics certified turbine engines, the fuselage, the wings, the transition from vertical flight to forward flight and back for landing is probably our largest technical challenge.
But as you say, we have a brilliant engineering team and a lot of experienced engineers, and we have tremendous computerized flight control these days. And so I don't anticipate any technical problem that we won't be able to solve successfully.
[00:19:06] Speaker B: Yeah. Cause the key is you take a professional pilot such as myself, and I go through a transition course, and I can learn how to operate a trifan 600 without going to have to get, like a full helicopter rating. Right. That's kind of the objective. Right.
[00:19:20] Speaker A: Right. If you're a fixed wing certified pilot, you need some vtol helicopter type training and vice versa. And so, yeah, we're not worried about the training or the actual technology for a transition.
[00:19:35] Speaker B: Now, there's a number of use cases, as I'm thinking about this, right. From executive transport, bringing people in from more rural areas into urban areas, point to point life flight, which I've been a beneficiary of, and accident in the past. An area that's fascinating to me is around logistics and the transportation of goods supply chain globally. How do you think an aircraft such as this or this category is going to impact the movement of goods over time?
[00:20:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
The veto aspect of this will have a huge impact on logistics and the supply chain in a positive way, because in a lot of cases, you'd be able to cut out truck deliveries because you can go to door to door with VTOL aircraft, whether it's a cargo version of the tri fan or EVTOL.
But that will, cargo is identified as probably the first sector of use by VTOL aircraft that's going to take off even before the passengers because. Because safety is not quite as high a priority as far as the aircraft itself and the payload with cargo, as compared to aircraft with passengers, easier to adopt.
[00:20:59] Speaker B: Is that what you're thinking?
[00:21:00] Speaker A: Yeah, I think the FAA is going to be more likely to certify cargo, the use of cargo aircraft, vtol cargo aircraft and autonomous cargo aircraft before they certify vtol aircraft for passenger.
[00:21:20] Speaker B: Yes. Which are two different certifications, which people from know.
Yeah, interesting. And I was, you know, thinking, you know, we've had some massive hurricanes recently, and just how would you envision even something like this being able to assist in disaster recovery globally?
[00:21:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:21:37] Speaker B: Well, even here in the US, like right now, as we speak.
[00:21:40] Speaker A: Well, like helicopters, of course, which are key to emergencies and disaster recovery and medevac. All of these other types of vtol aircraft will play a major role, the tri fan. We have a medevac configuration to move patients blood and organs, and of course, faster and farther with the trifam than a helicopter, for example.
And then with all the electric vertical takeoff and landing air taxis, there'll be a role for them to play. They'll be more commonly available for shorter deliveries of medevac needs.
[00:22:26] Speaker B: So vertical, fast and far versus evtol, shorter range. Do these two categories, do you think they compete or do they complement each other?
[00:22:37] Speaker A: They primarily complement each other.
If somebody's trying to go from point a to point b, that's 500 miles away, the evtols are not going to be serving that mission, but the trifan will be. But on the other hand, cleaner and quieter missions will be fulfilled by the electric vertical takeoff and landing aircraft, shorter, urban type of trips. The evtols will be fulfilling that role.
[00:23:14] Speaker B: Awesome. Well, let's do this. We'll kind of land the plane, so to speak. So let me ask you one question. If you're just looking over the next few years of development through the PDR and CDR and seeing that first airplane, Flydenna, what gets you most excited over this next couple of year period for you, Dave? Yeah.
[00:23:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Well, we have a very exciting time coming up for XTI aerospace when that first test flight, test aircraft number one flies and goes through the whole testing process and FAA certification. As I said, right now that's targeted for 2027.
And so that, I'd have to say that's the most exciting point in time that I'm looking forward to.
[00:24:02] Speaker B: I bet. So, airplane number one, does it have your name on it?
[00:24:11] Speaker A: I want to be in one of the very first flights. I don't know if it's going to be airplane number one, but, yeah, as soon as possible.
[00:24:20] Speaker B: That's awesome. Well, Dave, thank you for your time and thank you for your vision. It's contributing to the future of aerospace, and I'm excited to see where it goes. And we want to have you back on. There's so much more we can talk about. But, man, thank you for being here.
[00:24:35] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I'd like to come back and thank.
Thanks for this.
[00:24:39] Speaker B: Absolutely.
