[00:00:00] Jason Harris: You know, a lot of times what happens is we get a new tool or we provide a new tool for someone and we say, hey, man, we've got the greatest tool for you ever.
[00:00:09] John Ramstead: Yeah, we don't have that problem.
[00:00:11] Jason Harris: Exactly. And so I could bring you a Phillips head screwdriver. And you said, no, I need a flathead screwdriver. I'm thinking, oh, this is the best new, most innovative Phillips head screwdriver. And go. Great, congratulations. You got a great tool, but I need a flathead screwdriver. So go back to the drawing board.
So for me as a planner, fantastic platform, fantastic tool. But does my user need that tool?
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Welcome to Hangar X Studios, where we explore the future of aviation, innovation and everything vtol. And today we are welcoming back a guest that we had, Jason Harris. Welcome back to the podcast.
[00:01:39] Jason Harris: Great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
[00:01:41] John Ramstead: Now, we're bringing you back on today because we want to talk about a couple military missions and the application of everything from drones to UAVs to some of the advanced VTOLs that are being developed. You're a decorated combat veteran, flew for the airlines, you do consulting for companies. I've heard you speak. You're an incredible speaker on something you call no fail trust. And it is an outstanding program and I love the work you're doing in that area. We even wove that back in if you guys want to go listen to the last episode. We wove some incredible principles that we got some great feedback on from Jason in the last episode.
But today I really want to focus on what in the military we call the ISR mission, which stands for intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance. And there's been some incredible advances in the technology and the sensors as well as the platform that these sensors are going on and how everything's integrating in the battle space. And I think everybody that I know of who's developing drones, UAVs, VTOLs, like we're building, they're looking at commercialization of our technology. But we're also looking at military applications pretty much across the board.
And so with that though, as we dive in, I would love for you to, because you flew these kind of missions, you were a part of the planning of these. First of all, could you really define for somebody that doesn't really know what that means, what is isr?
[00:03:00] Jason Harris: You know, the idea of ISR as you defined it, you know, intelligence, surveillance, reconnaissance, it's really just about gathering information. And when we look at isr, there are ISR platforms that are in space, that are space type of satellite platforms, all the way down to individuals that are ISR platforms that are actually carrying something in their hand, all the way down to something as simple and as small as a handheld UAV or a handheld drone. Any of those things can be considered an ISR platform. So really what it's all about is the method that we utilize to gather data. Gather information that could be data information on a whole country, could be data information on a particular area, data information on an individual.
So this idea of isr, it's a really, really wide spectrum of things that we are looking to just gather information on.
[00:03:52] John Ramstead: What are some of the things that we can gather information on that are not classified?
[00:03:57] Jason Harris: Everything. I mean, if I want to know how birds are migrating back and forth, that's really an ISR mission. We don't call it that, but there's some federal program out there and they monitor the migration habits and patterns of birds. That's really an ISR type of program.
So anything you want to gather data and information on, you can put it under this umbrella of isr. And so we, so we could do.
[00:04:21] John Ramstead: This with crops, we could do this after like a fire in California looking at area restoration. We could also do it for enemy activity and patterns of life and things that we might need to plan a mission.
[00:04:34] Jason Harris: Absolutely. There is a particular military platform that the RC26, I believe it's still in operation. It's primarily utilized by Air National Guard units. And the NE thing about this platform is it is a multi use ISR platform. What do I mean by that? It can be utilized. For example, what you talked about, fires. It's a platform that they can use the sensor, the, the infrared sensor to see where the heat signatures are at, to see where the fires are at, where it's spreading at. There are civilian type of aircraft that are utilized for that exact same purpose. There are other platforms that are out there, or actually going back to that particular platform, it could be used for Fires, fighting fires. It could be used for helping troops of military members that are moving into a target area. It could be helped to assess pattern of life. It could be used to assess border operations, you name it. And it just depends on what the sensor is on that platform and what its capabilities are as to how we will leverage and utilize that platform.
[00:05:33] John Ramstead: Now, I'm not familiar with the RC26. Is it unmanned?
[00:05:35] Jason Harris: No, no, it's a manned asset. It's a twin engine manned asset. The civilian version is the Metro Liner.
[00:05:41] John Ramstead: Oh, okay. I've flown those.
[00:05:43] Jason Harris: Yeah.
[00:05:43] John Ramstead: In my youth.
[00:05:44] Jason Harris: There you go.
[00:05:45] John Ramstead: Big gold Garrett engines. Those things are the noisiest engines I've ever flown in my life.
[00:05:49] Jason Harris: Right. You know, and there's. And when it comes to isr, there are other things out there. One of the. A really cool experience that I had was getting to know about a particular company that was a foreign company in Austria. And they actually had a platform. It's a platform that is actually used for civilian flight training. And they took one and they converted it, put some sensors on it, and this platform was actually contracted to be able to assess volcanic ash. Why is that important? Because, as you know, you don't want a jet aircraft with jet engines flying through volcanic ash because it will wreak havoc on those engines. So this platform. Yeah.
[00:06:26] John Ramstead: You might not land the way you want to land.
[00:06:27] Jason Harris: No, I mean, I don't know if you've ever seen an airplane that's had volcanic ash on it. And I don't know if you've ever seen the damage that it will do to a jet engine.
[00:06:34] John Ramstead: I haven't.
[00:06:34] Jason Harris: In person, these small finite particles will destroy a jet engine. And I don't know about you, but I like to know that I'm going to be to land safely. And I like to know that if something goes wrong on the landing, that I can do a go around and not be concerned on the performance of those jet engines. When you throw volcanic ash in there, and a significant amount, it's going to change how that engine performs. So there's platforms that are designed to help detect volcanic ash and assess the environment. That is intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance.
[00:07:06] John Ramstead: Wow. So it's interesting. So there's a lot of applications, both commercial and military.
Now, I know in the military we kind of look at ISR from kind of two big buckets, strategic and tactical. Could you talk a little bit about what the differences are and some maybe examples of those missions?
[00:07:20] Jason Harris: Yeah. A simple strategic mission for ISR might be your satellites. That's big picture. Right. They're covering a wide swath of area.
They're looking at various things. It could be looking at temperatures, it could be looking at movements, it could be looking at the ocean and any number of things. Right. It could be looking at military operations, who knows? But that is at a strategic level, big picture. And so of course we love to say the 30,000 foot view. Well, that's the outer space view, you know, or the lower earth orbit view for those satellites. And then you come down to the tactical area, you have aircraft, aircraft, like.
[00:07:55] John Ramstead: You know, the Global Hawk, the big unmanned drone, or not drones, not the right word. It's a UAV, the side of a 737.
[00:08:03] Jason Harris: It's a, it's a massive, it's a massive aircraft, it's unmanned, it has various sensors on it. I don't know what all the sensors are. I'm certain that there's some that are public knowledge and there's a lot more that are likely very classified.
[00:08:15] John Ramstead: Yeah, we were just up at McDonnell Douglas in, in Grand Forks in Great Skies, North Dakota, and they're retrofitting the Global Hawks for a new mission.
And we could see them through a window, but we couldn't even go into the room. And you can't tell what anything is. But I'm sure the sensors are very high tech, high classified.
[00:08:33] Jason Harris: Oh yeah. And you gotta imagine certain platforms have the potential to do strategic isr and then when necessary they can go to.
[00:08:42] John Ramstead: Tactical isr, like a Predator or a Reaper, potentially, yes. They can be in a dual mode, right?
[00:08:47] Jason Harris: They can potentially be in a dual mode. Typically those are actually inside the battle space.
And I like to think of it like this, without me having a definitive definition. When you're actually in the battle space or you're in the environment, that is, that requires a response, that requires reaction, that requires action immediately, that's more tactical. And so, you know, when you think about like a Global Hawk, that thing takes off and it flies for 30 hours or something along those lines, or.
[00:09:14] John Ramstead: However long at 60,000ft.
[00:09:15] Jason Harris: Right. Whatever altitude they're flying at, they're just collecting information, collecting the data and someone can utilize that at a strategic level. But now when you say, hey, we have a fire right here, right now, and we need to assess is this fire moving? Have we controlled it? Where is the fire line? That's tactical isr. That's real time right now, data that we need.
Now the other piece, when it comes to the tactical ISR thing is we have to consider how quickly can we one, get the Data, collect it. And two, how quickly can we disseminate the data to the users so that they can do something with it? Does us no good if we collect data and we can't get it to the end user or the warfighter when it comes to combat operations. For them to be able to utilize it right now or if we need.
[00:10:02] John Ramstead: It in a certain area, because we just. This popped up and I can't get a platform into that area soon enough to help the people that need the help.
[00:10:09] Jason Harris: Absolutely. So when you look at Tactical isr, you want to be thinking about the utilization of the information as rapidly and as effectively as possible.
Right now, for example, if I have an asset that's overhead, that's surveilling an environment, that's surveilling a person, that's surveilling whatever the target might be, whether that's human target or stuff. Target to be vague about it. But whatever that target is, I want to know how quickly can I relay that information to someone else, Whether that's someone else in the air or that someone else on the ground or someone else that's going to ingress that target so that they can actually leverage that information to be able to do what needs to be done to handle that mission that's on the table right now.
[00:10:56] John Ramstead: Yeah, I love that. And so let's kind of start maybe then from small tactical and then kind of work our way up. You know, we all see the movies with the special Forces and they got the drone and they throw it up and they're using it.
So from drones to some larger UAVs, what advantages have they brought into the battle space?
[00:11:16] Jason Harris: It's the eyes. It's being able to see. When you think about what you see on tv, those operators, whether they're tier one, tier two, tier three, whatever, it doesn't matter. When you give them the capability to see the battle space, when you give them the capability to see in 3D, when you give them the capability to see out in front of them, when you give them the capability to understand what's happening on the battlefield right now, that changes the dynamics of how they will move, how they will operate, how they will fight, how they will engage and or disengage from the enemy. So that becomes very, very powerful because that is what has the capability of saving people's lives on the battlefield.
[00:11:58] John Ramstead: So what are some of the advantages and limitations of some of these platforms?
[00:12:02] Jason Harris: Advantage being able to see the battle space.
[00:12:04] John Ramstead: And just. And I have it with me, I can launch it.
It's point of need. Boom.
[00:12:10] Jason Harris: Absolutely. It's right there. Real time. Pull it out of my backpack, Pull out of my pocket. There's some of them that will fit in your side cargo pocket. Take it out, throw it up, and it looks at it. And there's some of these things that we can get off the shelf. Right now we're utilizing them to make movies, to make, you know, Instagram posts and things like that. But think about when it comes to a hostile environment, or perhaps think about it when it comes to a rescue environment.
Think if you got somebody here on the mountains, and we need to see where they're at. We need to see actually how they're hung up. We need to see what their rig looks like. What are we gonna actually need to bring up to rescue this person? Now we take one of these things out of our pocket, a little small drone, little small uav, send it up, and now it gets eyes on. Now it changed the dynamics of that rescue operation. Now it changes that dynamic of that combat operation. Those are significant advantages. We start getting into disadvantages, especially in the combat environment.
You start thinking about, well, if I put something in the sky, now someone can see that I got some in the sky. If they see something in the sky, then they know that there must be somebody there.
[00:13:11] John Ramstead: If I hear a drone, somebody's, especially a small one, I'm going to say that that was. That was human launched, most likely. Somebody's probably within a click or two of me.
[00:13:20] Jason Harris: Quite possibly could be human launched. It could be launched in another way. It just all depends.
[00:13:25] John Ramstead: Okay, getting cagey there. What are some other disadvantages of these, even some of the maybe larger UAV platforms relative to the manned ones?
[00:13:33] Jason Harris: Well, you know, when you start thinking about some of the larger UAV platforms, of course, the sound signature, it takes a bigger engine to move that size of a platform around so people can hear that. So that has the potential to alert someone to your presence. And so now if they. If you're doing something to assess an environment, when they know that someone is now watching them, they have the potential to now change their behaviors. They have the potential to now move their operations to a different location, and that becomes a disadvantage. So you have to keep that in mind when it comes to some of these larger platforms that are on the battle space, that are doing this ISR type of mission.
[00:14:11] John Ramstead: So when you're doing mission planning for an ISR mission, I'm guessing the sound signature, the proximity to the enemy, the range of the sensor, what are some of the things you're thinking about as you're planning what's the right platform for this, what we're trying to get to.
[00:14:26] Jason Harris: Yeah, I want to be thinking about all that. You know, sound signature becomes important. What is the target? If it's something that's just a building and there's no one in it, then I might not be worried about sound signature. However, if I get eyes on that target and I see that they have sensors to listen or to visually see and visually acquire, then now I might change what I'm worried about in that environment, because now I might have to worry about based on advancements in technology. Not necessarily a human on the ground seeing me, but some type of device that could hear and see me that then alerts to my presence. So I want to be thinking about sound signature. I want to be thinking about standoff distance to the target environment.
I want to be thinking about how much time can that asset actually stay on the target before it needs to be relieved. I want to be thinking about what altitudes is it going to operate at. Are we talking a mountainous environment or are we talking about a sea level environment? Are we talking about an austere environment?
All of these factors go into the planning process for an ISR mission. Especially when you start talking about the ISR that's at a lower level where it's closer to the ground. You know, if we put something up at 30,000ft, it's likely not going to be very close to the ground. So those level of concerns and much harder to hear. Much harder to hear. And then of course, now when we start talking size, we start talking sound signature, we start talking target environment, then we start talking about standoff distance. Okay, do I want the ISR platform to just hover over the target? Does it have the capability to circle around the target? If it circles around the target and it's an aviation platform, what's that stall speed or what's the characteristics of that platform? And does it allow me to do a left hand turn? Does it allow me to do a right hand turn? Can I get two miles close to the target? Do I need to be 5 miles? Do I need to be 10 miles? Again, all of these factors become important when we're starting to look at planning these type of missions, because those will dictate us being able to actually complete the mission or not.
[00:16:19] John Ramstead: What's the distance you need to be from a target where they can't hear you?
[00:16:24] Jason Harris: Wherever they can't hear you?
[00:16:26] John Ramstead: I mean, are these some things that the military determines and so Each platform, I kind of know almost that audio detection range, visual detection range.
[00:16:34] Jason Harris: I think there's tests that are done. And you know, it just depends on the unit, it depends on the platform and it depends on the mission. There's some platforms that we don't need to do that because again, they're going to be at a certain altitude. And there's some platforms that I might not care if you hear me. Because if you hear me, you see me. That means it's probably game over at that point, you know, so it really depends on that platform. That platform is going to drive the necessity for a sound signature evaluation. It's going to drive the necessity for how high we can fly it. You know, it's going to, it's going to drive all these factors with regards to planning based on what the mission itself is, based on what that target is, and based on what the needs of the end user are. You know, a lot of times when it comes to military operations, there is.
We break it up into the person or the organization that is being supported, who is the supported unit, who is the supported command, and then who is doing the supporting. And so the reason that's important is because whoever is the supported unit, the supported command, the supported objective, they dictate the mission, they dictate what they need.
Once they dictate what they need, then the supporting unit, the supporting asset, the supporting leadership, then they will say either they can or cannot do it, and they'll figure out how to do it if necessary.
[00:17:54] John Ramstead: So the how is we're going to use this platform or this one, or we don't have a platform that fits those parameters. Sorry, change your parameters and we can help you. Or we can help you find somebody else.
[00:18:03] Jason Harris: Exactly.
[00:18:05] John Ramstead: So getting into VTOLs like the Trifan 600, it's being touted there's been a lot written that this could be one of the next big steps forward in ISR add capabilities. There seems to be a lot of excitement about the intersection of these two.
Where do you think that excitement is coming from? What does this platform do that has not been there before?
[00:18:24] Jason Harris: I think there's a few aspects to this platform when you look at this platform. One, the amount of Runway that's required, if any at all, to get it off the ground. Then two, you look at the distance that it can cover to get to a target.
Then you start thinking about how long can it actually stay there because of how it operates. Then you start thinking about other factors. Can it operate in that austere environment? You know, Knowing that maybe you're not going to have a regular Runway now, it changes the capability of us being able to actually go and do this mission. So I think some of those factors are what's getting people really excited when it comes to that cross section between this environment, this particular aircraft and the ISR environment.
[00:19:08] John Ramstead: Yeah, because you know, a helicopter can get into some of those austere environments, but they're slow and they're loud. But if we can get in faster and quieter. But you know, you asked me interesting question before about what's the stall speed? Yeah, well, now the airfoil is going to have a stall speed, but as you get below transitional, if below stall speed, our fans tilt up and I'm like, well, you know, there's not really a, we need to think about it differently. But you had a different take on that. What was that?
[00:19:34] Jason Harris: My immediate take is I want to know what the stall speed is because I want to know how slow can I get that aircraft? Because the speed will determine my ability to look at a target. And when I think about that from there I go, okay, if you start getting into the VTOL mode, then I start going, wait a minute, now it's going to change the sound signature because that's going to require more power.
Now I got to decide how close can I allow this aircraft to get to that target point.
So all of these things, literally, it's like we say, for everything you give up, you gain something. For everything you gain, you got to give up something. In aviation, what we talk about, you trade altitude for airspeed, you trade airspeed for altitude. And the same thing goes in this platform. What are the trade offs and why? And can it do one thing better than the other thing? And at what point are we able to max perform this aircraft in support of the mission that we're looking at?
[00:20:28] John Ramstead: What would max perform?
What are some areas or some scenarios where you might need that max perform?
[00:20:36] Jason Harris: You know, I immediately go into the tactical ISR environment and so I say, well, let's just paint a picture and say we're in a tactical environment, military operations and combat operations, or maybe even something that's not full on combat, but it's something that's in the operational space and I've got a target that I want this platform to go and look at. Now I got to say, okay, what's the sound signature like? Is this a group of people? Is this a group of people that we know are a threat to people on the ground, are a threat to us? Service members, are a Threat to people within their own borders or whatever the case may be. Then I want to think about how do I get to them, how quickly can I get to them? What kind of sensor can I put on this platform? Or how many sensors can I put on this platform?
Can I only put visual sensors or can I put data sensors as well? Then I want to think about how do I acquire that target, how long can I stay on evaluating that target, assessing it, gathering the intelligence. And then I want to think about how quickly can I pass that data, that information to the war fighter on the ground that needs it to be able to make a decision in real time to do something about it.
So all of those things become factors. And that stall speed of how slow can it go? How slow can it turn around that target point? Can it actually hover over it at a moment's notice? All of these pieces of the puzzle go into how I would look at leveraging a platform like this in a combat tactical ISR environment.
[00:22:02] John Ramstead: True. I mean, you do have hover capability, but it's going to be very loud and require a lot of power.
[00:22:07] Jason Harris: Well, and not only that, let's actually.
[00:22:09] John Ramstead: It'S not designed to hover extended periods of time like a helicopter. VTOLs are just not sure.
[00:22:14] Jason Harris: But let's think about that. Let's say we.
Whatever that hover time is fantastic. Let's say we decide to use that. We'll stop on that one.
Now the next question becomes, is that what altitude is it going to be at? Then the next question, what kind of downdraft does it create? What does it do to that sensor? Does it disrupt that sensor? Because now if you disrupt the sensor, then it does us no good. Then the next piece is how loud is it? Then follow on. I would ask the other question is, what does it do with regards to pushing the air down?
Right? So, for example, if it's people that are in tents or something like that, or shanties, is it gonna blow them over?
You know, you go and look at the.
[00:22:58] John Ramstead: Well, they definitely know you're there then.
[00:22:59] Jason Harris: Well, they know you're there. But maybe we don't care that they know we're there. Right?
[00:23:02] John Ramstead: Oh, fair.
[00:23:03] Jason Harris: But let's think about, oh, my goodness, what is the aircraft? The Marines and the Air Force has them.
My brain is taking a dump for me right now. But that aircraft is the tilt rotor. The Osprey. The Osprey. Take a look at the Osprey. Did you ever see that video where they were in Central park and they landed the Osprey and they went to go take off.
And the havoc that it caused.
[00:23:24] John Ramstead: Oh, because of the downwash and the outwash.
[00:23:26] Jason Harris: It was, it was insane. It blew. It was blowing people over.
Fantastic aircraft, but bad timing. So you cannot.
[00:23:36] John Ramstead: FAA just came out on guidance for vertiports now. And in the safety zone they, they define it as gale force winds. It's where the outwash and downwash is.34 and a half miles per hour or less. And so a helipad is designed to be a 50 foot square.
We believe we're going to be able to fit within that. But we're doing a lot of testing right now to actually understand that. But vertiports are going to have a very specific design and all of us are going to have to actually know those numbers. Because what if I couldn't go, you know, most helicopter or hospitals, 40 foot vertiports. Yeah, helipads.
There's going to be a lot of stuff that's being certified that might not be able to land and be in a life flight mission, so to speak.
[00:24:18] Jason Harris: Right. And so.
[00:24:19] John Ramstead: Because they can't fit on 40 by 40.
[00:24:21] Jason Harris: Exactly. Well, and now you think about in the tactical environment, think about this. If, if for consider you say, okay, well we're going to utilize this platform and we're going to put somebody in there that is an operator and they're going to be to communicate with people on the ground because they speak the same language. Fantastic. We've got the sensors on board, they can see the sensors, they can talk and speak to the person on the ground. They're able to get the information.
But now the next thing is, is to that size factor. Are they going to be to land near them? How close are they going to be to land, how big is their area of operation to be able to support a platform like this taking off and landing. And how much danger is it going to pose to the, to that unit that's on the ground?
[00:25:02] John Ramstead: Like can we land 20 yards away or do we have to be 100 yards away? But these are things the mission planners have to consider.
[00:25:07] Jason Harris: Absolutely.
Again, there's a lot more that goes into it. It's not as simple as, oh, we're just gonna land the plane by you.
Now we gotta think about what is the danger to the human element down there, what is the danger to other.
[00:25:18] John Ramstead: Things, to the aircraft and the pilot?
[00:25:20] Jason Harris: Absolutely. Right.
What kind of field environment are there rocks? Is it gonna tear up the engine? Is it gonna, you know, fod out the engine? Is it gonna tear up the undercarriage? Of the wing or the undercarriage of the aircraft.
[00:25:30] John Ramstead: Again, no landing on volcanic ash fields.
[00:25:34] Jason Harris: Yeah, we'll pass on that. It's going to blow up all the volcanic ash, then before you know it is back in the engines and now we're done.
[00:25:40] John Ramstead: Now, let me ask you a question. If you're a mission planner, isr, mission planner, which you've done before, and somebody added something like this to your toolkit and you were communicating, hey, to the operator in the field, here's some things that we can do to enhance, maybe some mission planning, give you some new perspectives. How would you think about that?
[00:25:59] Jason Harris: I'd be thinking about what are their needs.
You know, a lot of times what happens is we get a new tool or we provide a new tool for someone and we say, hey, man, we've got the greatest tool for you ever.
[00:26:13] John Ramstead: Yeah, we don't have that problem.
[00:26:14] Jason Harris: Exactly. And so I could bring you a Phillips head screwdriver. And you said, no, I need a flathead screwdriver. I'm thinking, no, this is the best new, most innovative thing, Phillips head screwdriver. And go, Great, congratulations. You got a great tool, but I need a flathead screwdriver. So go back to the drawing board. So for me as a planner, fantastic platform, fantastic tool. But does my user need that tool? And if they don't need it, then it's useless. And so I don't want to create a mission out of nothing. I want to make sure the mission is created out of need and necessity first and foremost.
[00:26:49] John Ramstead: So from what you know about their needs, because when you first walked here and saw this, you're like, are there some things you're able to talk about that this could fill a need or create a capability that they could take advantage of?
[00:27:02] Jason Harris: Absolutely. You know, there's always a need for a platform that can go deeper into an environment. There's always a need for a platform that can operate in austere environments. There's always a need for a platform that doesn't require a normal runaway environment.
And a simple use case that I think about is if for some reason we had a massive earthquake in the United States.
There's plans that are in place, they've talked about it. Where there is a fault that is going to end up cracking at some point. And when that happens, it's going to destroy a lot of the western United States. It's going to destroy runways, it's going to destroy roads. And so while, yes, C130s, we can land on anything, but if you don't have anything that's long enough for a C130 to land and take off safely, what's next? Then you start saying, okay, great, helicopters, to your point, helicopters, they're loud. The operation cost is a lot higher. Then I start going, okay, well great, I can look at that.
[00:28:00] John Ramstead: And they're slow, 125 knots maybe, right, they're slower.
[00:28:03] Jason Harris: How much load can they take? So now if I say I could take one of these and it can actually replace helicopters in a different capacity to be able to deliver food, to be able to deliver aid, to be able to deliver teams taking people in, taking people out, now we've changed the dynamic and the need purpose for this aircraft.
[00:28:22] John Ramstead: So we could stage 100 miles away, get there in 20 minutes and do three round trips without refueling.
[00:28:28] Jason Harris: There you go.
[00:28:29] John Ramstead: Right.
[00:28:29] Jason Harris: So now you compare that to what a helicopter could do. Now you compare that to what you won't be able to do with fixed wing aircraft. Now the need for this platform goes up exponentially.
[00:28:39] John Ramstead: You know, when you're kind of looking at the future, if you're, you know, as the, the battle space is changing, you know, the people I talk to in the military, you know, one of the big things they're preparing for is what China might do with Taiwan. They don't think it's going to be a hot war. But I know people in our, in the military UAS area, this is a mission that they are constantly thinking about and prepping for.
So I think the, the battle space could look differently than what we saw in Iraq and Afghanistan.
We thought that in the past, but it feels like it's going to be a little more technological and less kinetic. And I hope that's true because that means less people die. But given kind of where things are heading, it seems like ISR and ISR capabilities are even more important, especially given our capabilities with AI and cyber and things that are developing rapidly.
[00:29:29] Jason Harris: Yes, I think you're absolutely right. And yes, let's hope that we don't find ourselves in another kinetic environment.
Now when I look at a platform like that, when I look at the advancements in technology and I look at the type of war that we might find ourselves in, the number one thought that comes to mind as you were speaking was connectivity.
It's one thing for this platform to be to carry those sensors that will allow us to see the battlefield, that will allow us to expand our eyesight on the battlefield, allow us to get as close as we can to that threat.
But that means nothing if I can't get the information back to the end user as quickly as I can.
Also being able to get that information to the people that are also out there on the forward edge of the battle space.
Can it get the information it needs to the fighter aircraft, to the bomber aircraft, to the tanker aircraft, to the tactical operations center?
Can it utilize its capabilities and pass that information as rapidly as possible?
Because if we can't connect and pass the information then now how much time is it going to take to go out there, get the information, come back, pass the information up or download it and then. Right, so now I need to understand how do we build this platform. If we're going to take it and make it a special use platform, I want one of those special use platforms to be considering connectivity to other platforms.
You think about when you go into a battle space, you know, you were a fighter pilot and you knew that you had various platforms for various reasons up there. There were strike assets, there were, you know, electronic warfare assets. There were other assets that were out there for protection. There were assets that were out there for tanker refueling.
But how do we all talk on the battlespace, how do we communicate and how do we connect in real time right now on that battle space to be able to affect what we need to affect and to minimize kinetic operations from happening?
[00:31:24] John Ramstead: Well, and I'm just thinking about this whole chain. I'm a tier one operator and I'm planning a very important mission that got handed to me. I gotta go to supporting organizations who have to from communications to the right platforms. It has to go all the way down to the communication that comes back to me or I die.
And this is really where your entire concept of no fail trust came from, isn't it?
[00:31:44] Jason Harris: Yeah, it's.
[00:31:44] John Ramstead: That's the environment.
[00:31:45] Jason Harris: It's the environment, you know, plus or minus 30 seconds time on target are you gonna be to deliver? If you don't get on target plus or minus 30 seconds, then people's lives are hanging in the balance. If you don't get on target plus or minus 30 seconds, then the mission isn't gonna be to be completed. And so you can't have that level of trust that someone's gonna do that. If you don't first start with the right training, You've got to start with the right training. It doesn't matter if it's this platform or if it's another platform. And it doesn't matter how many platforms. If each platform, if each person, each operator is not fully trained at a level of execution that we can trust no matter what. When the stakes are high, when jobs and lives are on the line, when failure is not an option, then we're setting ourselves up for failure.
And once we have that training in place, then we have to go beyond that and say what are the processes that we're leveraging those standard operating procedures just internally to operate the aircraft, standard operating procedures as to how we communicate with other aircraft, standard operating procedures as to how we get in and out of the battle space, standard operating procedures and checklists and processes that are tested that are validated and making sure that our people have been tested and validated, that they not only have learned them, but they understand them, they comprehend them, they know how to execute and utilize them in real time. Because if we don't have that, then we don't have the ability to truly trust and empower people to go out there and execute the mission no matter what.
[00:33:12] John Ramstead: Yeah, and we have a lot of people listening that are developing companies, platforms, technology, software in this space.
And if you're listening and you like this, please what I want you to do is subscribe to this YouTube channel so you get notifications of what's coming up and also our audio, go to any audio platform.
We're there and we want you to subscribe, leave a review and just, you know, share this with one person. Because I love what Jason's sharing here with us.
But Jason, that said, you know, as we're looking at developing our own high trust organizations, there's probably a hundred companies right now that are entering from drones to UAVs to VTOLs, maybe more, maybe 200, I'm going to guess 10 or 12 are going to be names that we know five years from now.
What do you think is going to be, especially for the people listening that are, man, they're all in, they're working 60, 70 hours a week.
You've shared some great results from companies you've worked with recently. What are some of those principles you just talked about in the military environment that we can bring into the business environment, even into our families and homes that can up level our ability to actually accomplish this mission that each one of us are excited about?
[00:34:25] Jason Harris: Yeah, definitely an exciting space and I'm excited about what's to come. Right. What's in the pipeline? I think first and foremost people get excited when it comes to innovation. People get excited when it comes to startup. Startups are exciting and at times people look at special operations and they look at us as startup type of people because we just do random stuff.
[00:34:44] John Ramstead: We're very Entrepreneurial, we are very problem. You're going to do whatever it takes to solve it.
[00:34:48] Jason Harris: Absolutely. We're very entrepreneurial, we're very innovative and we really operate like startups. But what I've seen in some of the organizations I've worked with is that you have organizations that operate like a startup and while they're doing that, the one thing that they miss is they forget to create culture.
And if you don't create culture culture, you have to be intentional about it. And what I mean by culture, it's what happens when you get beyond the startup piece.
What's going to be that thing that keeps those bright minded individuals committed to that organization?
Because now the excitement, it's going to wane.
What keeps them there is culture.
And so in the special operations environment, that's what we had. We had culture. We can go out and try different things, we can go out and be innovative and we can go out and be entrepreneurial at all times. But the thing that made us really stick to it and the reason why right now, if some of my buddies call me, I'd go back in a heartbeat.
It's the culture, it's the people. And so if you're not intentional about the culture that you're creating as you're innovating, as you're figuring out new and cool things, new and cool ways to utilize this technology, if you're not being intentional about the culture you're creating, then you're not going to be able to create a high trust organization, you're not going to be able to create a high trust environment and you're not going to be able to create that no fill trust environment that last beyond the startup phase, that last beyond the exciting phase.
[00:36:17] John Ramstead: I'll never forget, you know, I got out of the military, flame fighters, combat cruisers.
And it's a culture of just excellence.
It's a culture of radical accountability and responsibility. I mean, you have a dedication to your craft and you know what? You gotta trust a guy on your left and right wing.
I might not even like you. We don't go have beers. But guess what? I have to trust you with my life and you have to trust me with your life. And it. I remember when I got out and got into business, I think in my first year I had seven jobs because I was so disillusioned with these cultures, lack of integrity, lack of excellence, that I would just quit. My wife would come home and my car would be in the driving. She'd be like, seriously? I'm like, yeah, I'll find something else. But when I finally did find a company that had most of the elements of that culture, that's actually why I became an entrepreneur. I said, I'm gonna go build companies that have that culture. And you know what, Everything we did, we dominated. And I learned all that in the military.
[00:37:15] Jason Harris: Yeah, it's so powerful. You know, a lot of times what I see organizations do is they will look, hear you and I talk about our culture in the military and immediately say, well, you know, we're not the military. We don't have the kind of money to build the culture. We don't have the money to do basic training and boot camp and that kind of thing when it comes to onboarding. Well, I'm not asking you to build a 6, 9, 12, 18 week program, but what I am asking you to do is be intentional about your onboarding process.
What I am asking you is to be intentional about how you create that environment where people feel like it is a culture that they would actually invite someone else to.
That's what I'm encouraging people to do. Because if you don't do that, then people aren't going to have a reason to want to stay.
Because today's project, you might finish that project and you move to the next one and it's not so exciting.
And so if it's not so exciting, are you only expecting the excitement to keep them or is it gonna be the culture that keeps them? And to your point, when you think about the military, yeah, there are people that they'll never be on my Christmas card list. There are people that I'll never go and hang out with at the bars or their parties or whatever the case may be. But I know based on our culture that they've got my six. I know that based on our training that they know how to do the job and get the mission done. And it doesn't matter if we like each other or not. I know that I can trust them to execute the mission. And a big piece of that is because of the culture that we've created. And so that culture is not just how we get along. That culture is how we do things. That culture is how we get the mission done. That culture is how we train. That culture is how we implement the training and how we execute the mission. And if we're not intentional about that, then we're not going to have a high trust organization. We're not going to be able to dominate. We're not going to be to win, especially when it gets hard.
[00:39:02] John Ramstead: Man, I love that Culture is not just about if we all get along, but it's actually how we do things. It's both. And you know what how we do things is we build extraordinary relationships while having excellence in our technical job. But with all that said, because we really wanted to focus on ISR today, as we kind of land the plane, wrap up here, what are just some final thoughts that you have or as you just think about this space and what it could look like four or five years out with all these incredible emerging technologies?
[00:39:34] Jason Harris: You know, when I think about where the future goes, this space, I encourage people to not just look at the platform and how cool the platform is. You know, this is a phenomenal platform. I can't wait to see the initial prototype. I can't wait to see some of these other platforms. But I would encourage people to think about all the various ways that you can utilize these platforms. I would encourage people to think about what is the problem that they're actually solving for.
And I want them to think about who are the people, who are the organizations that are going to be to leverage these technologies, because it's not enough to build. And they will come. No one's going to come after you build it if they don't have a need for it. So make sure that you understand what the need is.
Look at the varying needs, and look at the emerging needs that are going to happen.
You think about, you know, I mentioned the whole idea of volcanic ash, talked about the possibility of a major earthquake here in the United States or elsewhere. So start thinking outside of the box.
[00:40:33] John Ramstead: Our power grids, agriculture. I mean, there's so many threats, right?
[00:40:37] Jason Harris: I mean, you think about opportunities. When we had, when we had the massive fires here in Colorado several years ago, you know what one of the biggest challenges was?
The cell phone, the infrastructure. And what happened was people weren't able to make calls to see if people were safer, to make sure they can get to them. So now if you had a platform that had the ability to get up there and put a.
[00:40:57] John Ramstead: A mobile tower.
[00:40:58] Jason Harris: Bingo, Right?
So again, think about the past. Can give us a viewpoint into what's possible and then what the emerging needs are. Think about those and think about what. What can you really do with this platform? It's not just for civilian use, it's not just for military use. It could be for civil use, it could be for disaster use, it could be for natural disaster, all kinds of uses. But if you don't spend the time to figure out what the real need is, then you might create something really cool, really innovative and really unique.
That is just a great idea that has no real purpose in no real.
[00:41:36] John Ramstead: Use case, you know, and that's a great advice. One of my mentors is Horst Schultz, and he wrote the book Excellence. He was the founder of the Ritz Carlton. But everything that he did to create this luxury brand was driven by what the clientele is that he wanted to serve. And that's how he's become so known. And that book Excellence is fantastic example of a customer centric mindset, which is something we are.
That is an intentionally a huge part of our culture here at this organization.
[00:42:06] Jason Harris: So, yeah, I'll leave you with one more thing.
You know, a lot of people, they say think outside the box.
I actually think that's the dumbest idea ever. And here's why.
[00:42:17] John Ramstead: Well, I couldn't agree with you more.
[00:42:18] Jason Harris: Well, I'm glad.
[00:42:19] John Ramstead: You know what the box. I spent 58 years building my box, right. And that box hasn't always served me well. And when I step out of the box and it gets uncomfortable, I tend to like shrink back into my box and make the same mistakes.
And I know where you're going and I want you to go there because I love it.
[00:42:34] Jason Harris: Yeah. So when we say think outside the box, people they go, okay, great, I will think outside the box, but I'm gonna still hold onto it. And they're tethered to the box and because of that, they really don't become innovative. What I like to tell people is blow up the box, start from scratch. When you blow up the box, you're no longer tethered to that 50 something year old box that you created, that you're holding onto.
Now you can start with a blank slate. Start from scratch, and then start innovating from there.
And now you're not hampered, you're not limited by what's currently in existence, and you're no longer allowing that box to negatively serve you and influence your decisions in a way that aren't useful for you, for your team, and for your client, your end user.
Love that.
[00:43:23] John Ramstead: Well, with that, man. Keep knocking them alive out there. Jason, you are welcome back anytime and I always enjoy our conversations, man. You're awesome.
[00:43:30] Jason Harris: Thank you, brother. So good to be here with you, man.
