Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Gloria Bouillon: We started going out into the community and that was really eye opening for me to see the community perspectives on what their thoughts and concerns were with noise, with construction, with growth, even with changing the fleet size, even with the safety aspects, from what we saw, from what the FAA required.
And so there was such a, it was such a varied community group of, I would say, different viewpoints on it. So that was very enlightening, I would say.
[00:00:37] Intro: Welcome to Hangar X Studios where former fighter pilot and host John Ramstead takes us on a journey across aerospace as it enters an historic period of innovation and transformation.
Our guests include aviation experts, pilots, financiers, military leaders and innovators of all types.
Buckle up for an another episode of Hangar X.
Welcome to the Hangar X Studio podcast. And this is where we explore everything on the cutting edge of innovation and aerospace. Everything vertical, advanced air mobility. And we bring in some of the best thought leaders in the world. And not only technologies building aircraft, but infrastructure and how we're putting all these together as incredible things are happening in the space. And today we have a great guest on Gloria Bullion. Welcome to the podcast.
[00:01:35] Gloria Bouillon: Well, thank you. It's a pleasure finally meeting you. I've been a big fan of Hangerx Studios, so this is exciting.
[00:01:43] John Ramstead: Well, love having you on. And I met you, Gloria, because I was doing a lot, been doing a lot of research and reading and your name keeps coming up and everything that I'm seeing around the Internet, I'm like, wow, she has a great point of view and incredible experience. So we reached out and just really connected and so really excited to have you on and your resume is so extensive. So I'm going to read some things from here because it was too much to memorize, but strategist and advisor. You founded. You're CEO and founder of Aviatrix Advisors.
You guys do complex regulation strategy, growth plans, scale ventures.
You've also been an airport director.
We're going to talk about this. This is an airport that was about to get bulldozed and then you drove a 40% increase in operations. So I think understanding airports and also the infrastructure that's going to be required with everything that's happening in advanced air mobility and regional air mobility is really important. You're also a commercial and instrument pilot, so we have that in common. I'm sure we've flown some of the same airplanes. You're also the community integration director at the Advanced Air Mobility Institute and you also advise and this is great.
Smart cities govtech Space transportation and sustainability in south by Southwest. You're an advisory board member. So I know there's a lot of areas that you just have some passion about at aviation.
So before we get into some of the questions I have, I'd love to for you to just tell us a little bit about your journey and why aviation has become such a focus and passion for yourself personally.
[00:03:20] Gloria Bouillon: Yeah, actually, I began flying when I was very young. I actually lied about my age so I could start working to afford to pay for flight lessons and worked in all types of jobs and was known as the airport rat, I would say, until I could pay for my flight lessons, get through college. I did an aviation management degree and at the time, Dowling College offered a CTI program for air traffic control. So I did two years of advanced and basic training for the actual cab, the tower, the ground, and then the pilot training. So that was a phenomenal opportunity.
And then you went through the test at the end. And when the job announcement came up to become an air traffic controller, I turned it down and went into aviation insurance in Colorado, because I actually thought Colorado had.
I imagined horseback riding and great dusty planes to just have a lot more freedom than I did, I think, in taking a job in New York City. And so I started working as an aviation insurance producer and then missed the airport environment and started working for Aspen Airport in Aspen, Colorado. So that was a very exciting experience, working in operations and security and doing snow removal. I was even a rescue airport firefighter.
[00:04:44] John Ramstead: Plus there's also great hiking and horseback riding up there too.
[00:04:48] Gloria Bouillon: Yes, you could do all of that up there.
So that was really. I loved the position, the role. It was always exciting. There was always something going on at Aspen. I'm sure you're very aware of the airport there and the operations. And at the time they were actually going through a massive project. They're still going through it.
And I think at the time it was something around a $200 million project that I became involved in directly with the director for the. For their Runway widening. And it was involved almost every infrastructure aspect of the airport, airside and landside. There are many safety components of that that needed to be changed with the infrastructure. And so we started going out into the community.
And that was really eye opening for me to see the community perspectives on what their thoughts and concerns were with noise, with construction, with growth, even with changing the fleet size, even with the safety aspects, from what we saw, from what the FAA required.
And so there was such a. It was such a varied community group of, I would say, different viewpoints on it. So that was very enlightening, I would say. And at the time, a lot of my peers said they would never go into airport management. The position of being a director is just way too political. Too many challenges, sleepless nights, all of those.
[00:06:22] John Ramstead: And so you clearly didn't listen to their advice.
[00:06:26] Gloria Bouillon: No, none of it. Not at all.
And then I went into consulting actually for a firm, an engineering firm in Denver. And I worked on economic systems, statewide economic plans, airport master planning, capital development programs for airports. And a lot of the airports that were looking, that we were doing studies for, they were looking at how to maintain and sustain their operations. And that's just that. How do we build a feasible business plan out of what we have to do? So no one, no airport really wants to do a master plan. They're required, they're very expensive for some airports, but they have to do them. And so we tried to give them as much as what they can use for best possible uses with the limitations allowances for what the FAA wants to see. And so for a lot of these airports that have limited, I would say limited services, the demographics may not be supporting as much aeronautical activities, not as many flight operations, but they're still included in the national plan of Integrated airport Systems. So they're rel on the funding from the FAA as well as the community, but they're not generating a lot of, I would say, revenues to support their operations. It's very challenging for many of these airports to actually sustain their operations. And that is why I think, you know, I've, I've become so passionate about the AAM in the AAM realm because I see a crossover of business opportunities in which airports and the OEM operators, it becomes a good relationship for both of them to have some sort of business plan development out of it. So jobs creation, tax creation for the local economy. That where a lot of these airports they can develop, they have land with cheaper rates. So a really good opportunity for some of these OEMs to either start production manufacturing in some of these areas that really need that support actually.
[00:08:35] John Ramstead: Well, you know, it's interesting. So I'm, you know, I'm here, we're at Centennial, which is one of the busiest general aviation airports in the country.
[00:08:42] Gloria Bouillon: Yes.
[00:08:42] John Ramstead: But I just flew out to go visit a friend in Buena Vista, Colorado. That was about a 45 minute flight.
And I think the entire day that I was there, I saw one net jets, airplane land and we were out there in a cirrus. I think those are the only two flights I saw that day.
What is that, you know, as you're thinking about AAM and I think this whole new category of aircraft that's coming in, right. Vertical takeoff capabilities.
How does that impact the utilization of some of these smaller regional airports? Because, you know, we're kind of thinking in terms of. And there's a lot of writing around Vertip, you know, developing vertiports and things like this that are more, you know, population centric than airport centric.
[00:09:25] Gloria Bouillon: I actually did, I was involved in that airport master plan for Buena Vista as well. And I'm just thinking of the layout. I remember doing the helipad, the heli port design for that specific airport.
They do have a lot of Black Hawk activity from what I can remember, and military operations. And so, you know, it's.
That is a challenge for, for some of these airports, especially someone like, you know, Buena Vista, that's a perfect example.
But they're located in a rural area where again, they're rates, their land lease rates are going to be much cheaper than let's say Centennial. I'm sure it's very hard to get into Centennial.
[00:10:07] John Ramstead: Yeah. If you want to hang in here. Now, my understanding is a three year wait.
[00:10:11] Gloria Bouillon: Oh, wow.
[00:10:11] John Ramstead: It's probably about a three minute wait in Buena Vista.
[00:10:14] Gloria Bouillon: Yeah, yeah, we'll sign you up. We don't care what you have.
[00:10:17] John Ramstead: Bring it in.
[00:10:19] Gloria Bouillon: Yeah, come on.
So, you know, it's a, again, something like that. It's a very good mutual relationship in which there are opportunities to generate revenue as well as tax creation, job creation, to put some of these companies that are looking to start production, start facilities if they have, particularly if they have land, you know, and it can become something quite beneficial. And I would say most of these communities, if they're not looking at major upset in operations where noise is a huge factor, there may not be as much of a huge community pushback, I would say, on an AM operation.
[00:11:07] John Ramstead: So with your background experience in aviation, you're just talking about some of the small airports.
What are some of the challenges they face today and what should they be doing as people are listening, be preparing for maybe what's coming up over the next three, five years to take advantage of some of the big changes that are happening in this whole space.
[00:11:28] Gloria Bouillon: You know, that will segment me kind of perfectly into my last roles.
Two of them were for.
I became an airport manager for two different airports. And one of the airports, I would say both of them were examples of airports that had infrastructure that was in need of repair. They needed a lot of grants from the, from the FAA as. And they also needed justification for those.
So one of the airports, for example, when I came in the first airport, they were doing essentially what I would call as a feasibility study to privatize the airport. Because the, the town, the entire community was going through a, you know, we pay this much towards the airport and what is it bringing us? And that is the view I would say. I wouldn't say and that and not intentionally, but that is how a lot of the operates airports operate because they're so capital intensive for just annual budget budgeting before you have your capital expenses.
And so for that airport I came in and started renegotiating a lot of the leases that were in place that put the airport in such a situation, I would say to be reliant completely on the city for its funding.
And then once we started that I developed a solar for power purchase agreement. And in that case it was at the time it was going to be the second largest solar municipal project in the state of Massachusetts. And so when you can find alternatives, revenue sources, particularly on lands that you know, and you have to still go through those studies, such as solar glare analysis, environmental assessments for those, you know, environmental impact studies, but still be able to generate enough money that the FAA can look at and set and say yes, this is, this is what we approve of for that, that the actual rate that they'll allow for the activity.
And so when I was able to get consensus from the city council and I would say from, from what was previously thought of as an airport that was going to either either privatize or I know there were, there was even talk to have it become a residential, you know, use the, the land for residential development.
And so I started really getting it into the media, getting the attention of the FAA and started doing an analysis of the, of the businesses there and actual. The actual uses. So best use cases and then again renegotiating those leases and gaining.
So then we ended up doing a two Runway rehab reconstruction projects and bringing on a full new revenue source for the airport and again renegotiating those leases to, to make it self sustaining. Then with the last airport that I managed, that was an airport that I actually was about to turn down the job position because they were about to go through a construction project that would decrease the width of the Runway. Their corporate traffic would have been lost. And this was in the planning process for about 10 years.
And so I was asked, can you solve this problem for us before coming on.
And it was funny, I called one of my mentors what was the problem.
[00:15:05] John Ramstead: You were asked to solve, because it looks like there, that one was basically.
[00:15:08] Gloria Bouillon: There were many problems.
Yeah, there were many problems.
[00:15:12] John Ramstead: So the experience you've had, you've had an incredible impact in transforming airports.
And I'm just curious, and I think there's something we can learn from. What are some of those critical decisions you had to make that went from an airport about to be downsized and relegated to growing and having 40% more utilization than it had previously? When you were done with what you implemented, what were those key decisions that allowed all that to happen?
[00:15:40] Gloria Bouillon: You know, that's a good question because a lot of times I had heard from different stakeholders, no, this will never, you know, this will never happen. But when you present with enough data and you gain the support from the stakeholders, I brought in as many allies as I could as far as I joined chambers of commerce, did presentations.
When you are able to gain the support, I would say from community members, from business associations, gain the political support that's required as well, and show them the data on, okay, this is where the airport was, but this is where it's going to be. And then show them how you came up to that, that, that figure, that data.
So, for example, one of the. When I came on the airport was in the practice of, of selling off properties. And I stopped that immediately.
One for protection of surfaces. Because when airports don't have enough, enough protection of their runways, it's a prime example of one of the most recent crashes we've seen.
You have to do displace thresholds, you have to do emass or something else to protect the runways.
Instead of selling off these properties, you find better alternative sources and revenue sources for those.
A couple of the sites, I actually brought in developers that at first they said there's no use for this.
And then once I brought in essentially a business case of this is interstate access. It's one of the safest locations we have. We had FEMA on the field, we had police headquarters on the field. And it was just, it became a point in which one of the proposals I got back from a developer increased the property value by something around 1,400%. So it was more money than we would ever be able to know what to do with. That were for lease rate values.
And so it was a. I would say it was a massive guerrilla marketing tactic that was required and able to save the airport, essentially save the pavement, save the infrastructure, and create alternative revenue sources for the other properties that were existing. And then from that, just from aviation companies knowing that we were about to expand. So instead of contracting, going to a full expansion project, a lot of the companies from nearby airports started and the nation actually started looking at coming onto our airport so putting them in, actually putting them in a waiting list for developing their operations, their facilities. And so it was really exciting time because it was not just aeronautical properties, it was also the non aeronautical properties. So bringing in other diversified revenue sources for that.
[00:18:45] John Ramstead: I love that.
And also you do a lot of work with aviation companies such as.
Well, there's so many out there right now founders the mobility space from your perspective and you have such a nice broad view. What are some of those things that are either I think regulatory or even operational barriers that are either causing either constraints or even just slowing down some of the innovation that's that needs to happen?
[00:19:14] Gloria Bouillon: Yeah, you know one of the things that is a massive component and I know a major component of this is I've seen, I've worked with some OEMs in the past and they, some of them want to announce developing letters of intent in every city across the nation.
And my advice is a lot of times is to localize, slow down, really focus on the product and the key markets that you're going to be entering in case you studies instead of, instead of.
Because in certain cities as we're seeing, you know, there are some airports and communities that will not want, they're not airport friendly, they are not aircraft friendly.
And so there are some key cities that I advise going against because you'll be tied up in the court systems as we've seen some.
I've seen so many airports near, near me and nationwide that are, that are just burned out for cash because they've been in the court systems for so long over noise, over construction, over, over these concerns. And so these OEMs, these startups that are looking for strategic locations, I wouldn't place operations in, in some of those communities that are just will do not want.
[00:20:37] John Ramstead: You know, I'm not going to ask you about the naughty list, but.
[00:20:42] Gloria Bouillon: What.
[00:20:43] John Ramstead: Are some either regions or states you say you know, that's where, that's where you maybe you should consider starting. Does anything stand out to you?
[00:20:50] Gloria Bouillon: Yeah, some of the Midwest I would look at because again lease rate values are lower than a lot of the coastal areas that are already strapped for land. They're already strapped for spaces, you know, unless there's public private partnerships. And you know one of the examples I think of a lot is like is beta and where they're located in Burlington, Vermont, it's Actually a pretty strategic location for, for their facility there.
And you know, they, it's as far as its geographic location as well. And so I know that that's been a really nice facility community to bring that, that type of operation and you know, there locations across the US that are good examples as well. But there's, you know, there's a lot of data out there to see how the community reacts and you know, surveys can help out too. So there are a lot of resources out there.
[00:21:51] John Ramstead: Yeah. So put some thought into. It's not just about the space. You're also looking at the landscape, the politics, the community to see if this is a place. Because when you're building an airplane you gotta do a lot of test flying and a lot of building. There's a lot to consider. So.
[00:22:07] Gloria Bouillon: Yes, absolutely.
[00:22:09] John Ramstead: Yeah, we were just up in Grand Forks. There's a lot of places to fly up there. They have a tech incubator up there really for drones and uas, but fascinating story and it's growing incredibly rapidly. They already have 20, I think 28 tenants in their incubator because they have such a unique airspace up there also in conjunction with an air force base that's allowing them some testing areas too. So it's. But finding some of those unique places is really important.
[00:22:35] Gloria Bouillon: Exactly.
[00:22:36] John Ramstead: Now this is going to be fun because you know, your work with the Advanced Air Mobility Institute community director and coming up in 2025 is the electric air race.
So tell us what that is, what you hope to get out of it and what implications that might have for this industry as it grows.
[00:22:54] Gloria Bouillon: Actually, it's really exciting. So this coming week, let's see in a few more days, we closed the date of the rfp.
I developed an RFP that was, I would, very informal compared to a formal rfp. So I tried to make sure airports and cities knew that in terms of the, you know, getting the best information out and it's going to be used.
The Pulitzer air race, it's a, it's a historic tie back to the race in the 1920s in which speed and you know, it was. What we're looking at in this case is, is speed for the OEMs, but it's more about bringing in the community, showing demo flights, static displays and bringing in multiple communities. So it's exciting because we've had quite a bit of interest nationwide for this, for this air race to take place.
And you know, my vision is to see it somewhat like an air show that I've put on before, that I've Hosted to bring in some of the older aircraft, maybe getting museums and foundations involved. So you bring in other demographics for into the community that may not necessarily be as excited about EVTOLs, but you still get them to come into the event and see a history and evolution of aircraft and so past and to the future of flight. It's really exciting because a lot of times with these events you don't get the noise concerns that communities that you normally see with other aircraft operations, construction projects, any type of event at the airport. Really the, I would say noise factors become quite low, noise reports become quite low during these events because the whole community comes out and really even people that are against airport operations, they typically come out to these type of air shows as well.
[00:25:02] John Ramstead: So what are the parameters of the race? I was curious about that.
[00:25:07] Gloria Bouillon: So we're actually so the first.
So we've changed the course itself quite a bit actually. So at first we wanted to have the. It was a cross country race and now we've turned it into ending at Kitty Hawk and now we've decided to, you know, bring the race to the community that wants it the most that can support the operation that, you know, some of these, some of these airports have great infrastructure already, so charging facilities, we are going to have mobile chargers as well. So we want to demonstrate the, the actual capability of these aircraft, of course, in the safest manner possible. So there's a lot involved in this.
So the parameter centers.
It's a triangular 30 nautical mile course.
And based on how many applicants were getting, you know, we're willing to kind of change that, you know, here and there on, based on what we're hearing back from some of the OEMs.
So of course that's a factor as well. And so any type of geographic hindrance or location such as mountains or something like that could change it as well.
[00:26:21] John Ramstead: Do you know what OEMs right now are considering participating?
[00:26:27] Gloria Bouillon: I do. I'm not going to announce, I'm not.
[00:26:29] John Ramstead: At liberty to say. Okay.
[00:26:31] Gloria Bouillon: The press release will be actually coming up I think in February 11th.
[00:26:37] John Ramstead: Okay. When that comes out, let us know. We'll make sure we help you.
[00:26:40] Gloria Bouillon: I will, I will, yes.
[00:26:43] John Ramstead: Okay. I want to talk to you about urban mobility.
Where do you see it? I mean there's. We've seen some great success stories in EVTOLs and recently there's been a lot of news about people just had to shut their doors or they're realizing the use case or you know, just the capabilities of the battery and the range and the loads and I mean, we're starting to see just the reality as we're developing these things. So as we're taking that into account, what is this?
When do you think we're really going to have an impact on urban mobility between the actual aircraft and the infrastructure?
[00:27:23] Gloria Bouillon: So urban mobility, I think will be somewhat of a challenge.
Not that we won't see it, but just a little bit more challenging as we see.
So even for example, class, I mean I gave the example of Beta, but they're in class Charlie Aerospace right now. So urban mobility again, yes, there are some corridors and low altitude economy kind of solutions that are being developed, but I still do see it as a challenge. More from the type of operation and also customer centric perceptions on getting into these aircraft. Are they going to be, you know, if it's the purpose of saving time and time flying into those urban centers, these cities, you know, the challenge again are some of the winds coming off of the buildings, particularly taller buildings, and then if they're landing in these operations, you know, understanding who will be the customer I think is really key to understanding the, the, who's going to be paying. Who are the clients that are customers that are going to be using this the most to be able to support these operations. So I do see it as more challenging, but I do think there are, there are surveys that, that do show that in these city centers certain demographics are more willing to be able to, to use these as, as for urban mobility, I would say yeah.
[00:29:03] John Ramstead: And then what do you think of urban mobility and advanced air mobility? How would you define the difference? Or are they kind of the same thing?
[00:29:12] Gloria Bouillon: I would say yeah. So there's regional mobility, you know, there's, I would say it's similar, but not as.
I would say it's similar. But also regional mobility is more of what we're seeing as a possible use case again for maybe not the, your everyday business traveler getting into city centers.
[00:29:37] John Ramstead: So, so I think of regional myself is like 100 miles out to maybe 7, 800 miles kind of that, that outer ring.
[00:29:45] Gloria Bouillon: Yes, out. Yes, exactly. So not the first and my first and last mile destination type of, you know, where it's, where it's more, I would say daily operations and more potential users that are potential not everyday users. And so there's a, I would say differences in the, the type of passengers that we would be looking at most likely for serving either regional mobility or urban, urban air mobility.
And so again, there are some really good business case support uses for regional mobility.
And again that goes back down to are both airports. So your arrival and your departure and arriving airports, are they both capable and able to handle the operation as well as the community support? So it kind of goes back to the supporting communities with the regional air mobility as well.
[00:30:50] John Ramstead: Yeah. And with your background Gloria, what do you see are some of the key things are going to allow that to actually start to mature?
[00:31:02] Gloria Bouillon: So as we have been seeing a lot of the Middle east and Asia actually starting these operations. So I think it's a perfect example for these companies to be able to really kind of in a more regulatory friendly environment. So where they have because it's so capital intensive as far as what's required to kind of start up operations anywhere. And so where you can, where you can have these operations while the regulations, the certification, all of that is being worked on and achieved and developed and, and, and all the testing is taking place. I think developing and sending your products to these locations where you do have, you know, passenger pain and because it's the aircraft operations are running. And so I think that will be a key in.
I think it's how to stay in the Keem the longest and not necessarily the first to be at something.
And so right now, particularly right now as we're seeing some of the of the companies drop out of this race, you know, there's a lot of lessons on, on where to be, you know, developing your aircraft to stay in in until all of these timelines can be met.
[00:32:32] John Ramstead: You know, if you as you've observed who's succeeding and continuing to grow and develop and other ones that haven't made it, what are your observations in what is creating success and where kind of that line is between hey, we're going to keep going or just didn't get there.
[00:32:53] Gloria Bouillon: It's interesting because I've worked with OEMs where a lot of them may have more of a technical background where it's almost thought of like in terms of this is a tech industry and it's very.
I've been in this industry for so long, you have been as well. But particularly on the regulatory and city side where things are moving at a, at a different pace than where private, private organizations, private companies move at and they can move at record paces. And I saw that with, you know, every city airport that I've worked for is just there are processes, procedures and it's the same way at the faa.
So even if you know someone is ready to go, usually the city or government or the regulatory agency says wait, let's take a step back, let's do a study on this to make sure it is ready to go. And so the industry, I would say right now a lot of the media is on this is mostly, I would say in tech publications in those types of journals. And so eventually by the time the operations should be starting in the US we'll need a lot more media attention for the community to read. So not just in technical publications or aviation oriented industry journals.
And so I think for right now we need a lot less hype from some of the companies that we've seen because we also need to be pragmatic and realistic about.
[00:34:40] John Ramstead: We also need to maintain some credibility too.
[00:34:42] Gloria Bouillon: Exactly, exactly. Because like I said, it's not necessarily the tech industry. You're working in the aviation industry. So it's a different beast in terms of, of their timelines, their requirements particularly.
[00:35:00] John Ramstead: Yeah, that's interesting. And you know, and a big part of the, you know, the promise of advanced air mobility is sustainability, you know, greener future. And there's, there's a mix, there's electrification, there's hydrogen, there's sustainable aviation fuels that, that have a, you know, a good promise. Right. About 80% less carbon than traditional fuel. And there's also hybrid that's combining elements of those.
Which of these do you think has the most realistic path forward that would actually fully enable kind of the city of the future that some of us are, you know, that we're starting to kind of see and envision, you know.
[00:35:40] Gloria Bouillon: The sustainable aviation fuels saf is it's, there are airports that are putting it, you know, into their infrastructure and it's challenging because it's expensive.
Airlines have been making, you know, a lot of purchase orders for sustainable aviation fuels. So I think there's a lot.
[00:36:01] John Ramstead: Do you know how many airports are like in, in the next year or two are actually going to have it available?
[00:36:07] Gloria Bouillon: You know, I don't, I, I can't quote it off the top of my head. I, I think I remember something around 50. I can't, you know, I don't want to quote misquote something but it's not a lot in comparison to the over 5000 air are in existence.
But there are good strides towards it. I do know it is in, you know, high demand and so I think being able to use it is going to, you know, while the electric mobility and propulsion systems are being worked on, you know, some of the, the hybrid uses that we've been seeing. I think that's even though there's a kind of like a debate going on.
Well, if you're switching to hybrid, is it really, you know, fully sustainable?
But I do think that being able to adjust and transform when we see some of these timelines change is really kind of key for some of these companies that are looking at hey, you know what, this certification process is taking a lot longer than we thought. So we're going to adjust and, and you know, use this until we can make some other, we see, see some other changes because the timeline has changed quite a bit.
So I do, It's a, it's a major component, you know, the sustainability factor in this. Particularly when you are discussing this with I would say political, different political parties when you're to going operating in these communities that may have different viewpoints. But if you're saying, you know, we're bringing in this operation that not only is, you know, cleaner, more sustainable, we have lands where we can put some renewable energy sources on them, we're going to make this airport more sustainable and bring in operators that allow for this. I think you have a different viewpoint because that's actually something that I was doing as well where you can gain more political support from the community.
And so I think there is a win win scenario for being able to have that.
Whether it's hybrid sustainable SAF or electrical propulsion or other uses. I think it's a complete win win for both scenarios.
[00:38:35] John Ramstead: Yeah, we just had the head of engineering on from XTI so they've developed that regional air mobility and they spent I think five years starting with electrification, looking at hybrid, looking at hydrogen and nothing would allow that range past 100 miles with any kind of cargo. And I know Air Force s softworks came up with the same conclusion recently. So yeah, you know, I'm hoping that there's some kind of breakthrough in, you know, battery technology. The battery, the energy density is only growing in a few percent a year. So it's not going to get us to where we need. So we do need to, you know, we need some kind of breakthrough that's going to really I think enable more options in that space, don't you think?
[00:39:16] Gloria Bouillon: Exactly. Yeah.
And, and like I said for the startups to, to stay operating, you know, it's, you know, we see a lot of, some of the companies go under that can't adopt or you know, and I shouldn't say fully adopt but it's just how do we, how do we potentially change what we're offering based on the current situation that we're. That, that we're in right now?
[00:39:44] John Ramstead: Yeah. So now as we're kind of wrapping up here. I know with your background, you're so involved in, you know, advanced air mobility, running airports, you're consulting to companies.
What would you say over the next couple years, in your opinion, are some of those key innovations that if the industry coming together collaboratively, solved, is going to just accelerate what's happening right now and capitalize on some of this momentum?
[00:40:12] Gloria Bouillon: So it's interesting, I'm actually doing a presentation to NASA, two presentations next week on this exact topic.
[00:40:20] John Ramstead: Well, that was timely.
Outstanding.
[00:40:25] Gloria Bouillon: Yeah, you know, and it's a, it's a time where I will be very pragmatic in my approach and what I'm discussing with them as some of the challenges that we're seeing. But again, the, you know, what we've seen with some of the larger companies going under, or there could be a shift in the sentiment and even in the investments towards the existing, these existing companies as well as the, some of the companies that are supporting AAM operations. And so it's.
[00:41:07] John Ramstead: Is that shift coming from maybe a lack of confidence? Like, here's all these big promises, a lot of hype, but then, boy, it sure didn't live up to what we were promised.
[00:41:17] Gloria Bouillon: Yeah, and even.
Yes, exactly. And even, you know, we're going to be rolling out these aircraft, you know, at 600, 600 aircraft a year or so, you know, so these, these very high numbers of, of.
And then, you know, some of them go under or, you know, so it's just, I think it just needs to be a bit more realistic for, for further investments, for future investments and also to maintain the cash flow that is needed to stay in until, you know, what we're seeing is potentially 20, 28 timelines and further.
[00:41:54] John Ramstead: So how does that shift in sentiment affect what NASA's doing?
[00:42:00] Gloria Bouillon: Well, they've been doing a lot of, you know, it's fantastic. What they're doing is a lot of promotion and working with companies on advanced air, you know, the full ecosystem, I would say, so working with airports, vertiports, cities. And so the fact that they've been fully involved in, you know, the work, even the working groups, I would say, and committees and getting a very high amount of interest and involvement. And if you can have, you know, something where you have a massive amount of support from, like NASA that helps these companies, OEMs either provide resources, the technical reports, some of the studies that have been conducted, as well as the, I would say the political support, it's a huge opportunity for them to also participate and say, we're supporting these operations and you can See that very well.
[00:43:05] John Ramstead: Yeah.
So you said shift in perspective and you said there was a couple either big challenges or that we need to be aware of or some innovations that need to be really addressed. Could you, I'd love for you to keep going. This is great.
You don't have to give us the whole PowerPoint for NASA. I know you got to save a little bit for them.
[00:43:24] Gloria Bouillon: Yeah.
Again, I know that besides all the certification and the operation operating requirements, in addition to some of the technical challenges, again, where I see a huge challenge potentially is in the stakeholder engagement, the community engagement. Because I've seen that time and time again for airports of all size, large airports that I've been involved with in these public meetings. And so even for example, one of the airports we were bringing in a six helicopter operator and I had pushback even from, I would say people on my board that didn't want the helicopter operations and they were pilots.
And so even understanding that there are not just the community concerns, there's the local concerns, but then there's also stakeholder concerns. And so this is for, I would say going to take a massive amount of undertaking on a local level, on a regional level to get that type of, that type of acceptance because safety is always, always comes up in these meetings. So I know these town hall meetings are, you know, they're required, I would say, you know, to be able to start operations because ultimately it's going to be the end user, the community members are, you know, if it's, if it's urban mobility, regional mobility, it's these community members that are going to be the paying customers.
[00:45:12] John Ramstead: Right. Safety, I would guess noise is a consideration. What else comes up in the community as far as adoption, Education.
[00:45:22] Gloria Bouillon: Yes. And so, you know, one of the things, even when you're presenting planning studies or construction, long term projects that will be at the airport, you can't just hand a technical report over and say like read this, here you go. This is what's happening in our community.
You have to present it, discuss it, answer questions. And usually it's, it could be years of going through one planning document with, you know, these communities. And so they're very, they're valid questions, you know, and, but you have to, there's a lot of work behind the scenes that for, so if they find out a new hangar is being developed or a new operator is coming in, you'll get a lot of different concerns. And so it's, it's going to take a massive undertaking for a lot of these operators to actually be able to operate, you know, when they actually start operating their, their.
Their vehicles or, you know, electric propulsion or hybrid. And so, so that's where I see as a big hurdle because sometimes it can take years, sometimes for. For bringing in.
Bringing in an operator.
[00:46:38] John Ramstead: Yeah. I don't know if you listened to our episode we did with Rex Alexander. He's an infrastructure expert.
[00:46:42] Gloria Bouillon: Oh, I do know him, but I did not hear that one.
[00:46:45] John Ramstead: Oh, it's fantastic. And you know, he was talking about a lot of the technical challenges, some of the things you referred to, but that's also something that he also highlighted was community involvement, stakeholder engagement. Education is critical for all of us in this space because we're changing air travel.
[00:47:01] Gloria Bouillon: Yes.
[00:47:01] John Ramstead: Think about it. We can now go point to point. I don't have to go to an airport. It's a different infrastructure. It's a different level of safety. It's a change in actually a way. A lot of us are even living, commuting, moving goods and services, providing health care. So, you know, there's always challenges as you're personally going through change or even thinking about, you know, leading and small organization through change. But now we're talking about changing how people do things. And there's a lot of people are very excited about it and there's also other people that are skeptical and, you know, but. So I just want to highlight that I think as an industry, we're doing a lot of things very well, but it's also something we can't take our eye off the ball of because it could just put the brakes on.
[00:47:48] Gloria Bouillon: Exactly. And that's why, you know, that's why the whole Pulitzer air race is so important in my perspective, is because we want it to be nationwide media on the community event that this will bring. It's demonstration flights, it's demo, it's static. People can see the aircraft themselves. And like I said, even if the demographics aren't particularly on the urban, the EVTOLs and those types of aircrafts, it brings in the community from all ages that can see this and say, oh, this is quite interesting. Let me learn a little bit more. And that's what you want to hear.
[00:48:27] John Ramstead: Love that. Well, Gloria, thank you so much for your time. Just as we wrap up, what final thoughts do you have that you'd love to leave to everybody who's been listening in?
[00:48:36] Gloria Bouillon: That's a good question.
Being in this, it's a lot of times what you see with some of these startups that I've been involved in, I. There are, there are planning business plans that, that either work or sometimes they need a little. They need a little help. And, and some of the, the startups, I would say, you know, sometimes it's one or two paying customers. If you can win those, you know, you have. And usually it's DOD or, you know, someone. Someone like that. And so again, it's, don't spread yourself too thin. And, and really, you know, try to train. Trying to gain the confidence of potentially one or two actually paying customers is huge.
[00:49:25] John Ramstead: So focus, build relationships and work with people that can pay for what you're.
[00:49:32] Gloria Bouillon: Building and what you're producing. Exactly, yeah.
[00:49:35] John Ramstead: Awesome. Well, Gloria, thank you for your time. And when you get to Denver, because I'm sure you will, at some point, we got to meet in person. We'd love to have you here in person in the studio.
[00:49:44] Gloria Bouillon: I would love that.
[00:49:45] John Ramstead: And, you know, once the RFP is out and the air race is underway and you can announce who's part of it, let's have you come back, because I think that'd be a great thing to be talking about, have some visuals with, and I'm sure our audience would actually love to know more about that.
[00:50:02] Gloria Bouillon: That would be wonderful. Thank you so much. I would love that.
[00:50:04] John Ramstead: Okay. All right. Keep knocking them alive.
[00:50:07] Gloria Bouillon: Take.
